4 ms·

Stop with the anti-union FUD. The worst civil forfeiture abuses are in states where the law enforcement aren't unionized.

ksquarekumar 6y ago
And I am assuming you don't have any credible data to back that claim up?
- gamblor956 6y ago
  https://reason.com/2015/06/09/this-map-details-whether-asset-forfeitur/ https://reason.com/2015/06/09/this-map-details-whether-asset... First result on google for civil forfeiture. Followed up by searching for [law enforcement agency] and union returns zero results for the worst locations. Police officers are unionized pretty much everywhere. Sheriffs, which carry out the most egregious civil asset forfeitures (usually in small travel-through towns), generally are not unionized outside of the big counties and states.
  - unethical_ban 6y ago
    Your argument doesn't rebut mine. Mine: Unions have a direct, negative influence on the ability for departments/cities to fire bad cops. Yours: There is correlation, but not causation, between non-unionized police departments and instances of civil asset forfeiture.
    - gamblor956 6y ago
      You're the one making the causal claim that unions are responsible for this. You need to prove your claim; I've already provided evidence that would refute the argument you would make.
handoflixue 6y ago
Do you have any evidence for your claim?
unethical_ban 6y ago
Tell me how that correlation is a causation. Public unions, and police unions specifically, are distinct in their impact on society from other unions. Police have negotiated the right to beat and murder people and keep their jobs with pay for months. There are cities where Derek Chauvin would have been on paid leave for weeks after killing george floyd. Minneapolis had the right to fire his ass when they saw how bad a cop he was.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  I agree that police unions can be problematic when it comes to disciplining bad cops. But don't blame them for something which is unrelated to the union itself. There are cities where Derek Chauvin would have been on paid leave for weeks after killing george floyd. Yes, and the police forces in those cities would all be unionized. Clearly, the issue is not the union; it is the city or county that negotiated poorly with the union. Though generally, in some states like the US Deep South, politicians are more than happy to give officers unlimited rights even without the unions requesting them. Minneapolis had the right to fire his ass when they saw how bad a cop he was. They fired him literally the next day. For prior incidents, none of them rose to the level justifying termination. That would have been true even in a non-union force.
  - nerdponx 6y ago
    NYC has two police "unions" which openly and loudly protest against police reform, defend officers who commit civil rights abuses, and are really more like PR and lobbying organizations than good-faith collective bargaining apparatus for organized labor.

ksquarekumar 6y ago

And I am assuming you don't have any credible data to back that claim up?

gamblor956 6y ago
https://reason.com/2015/06/09/this-map-details-whether-asset-forfeitur/ https://reason.com/2015/06/09/this-map-details-whether-asset... First result on google for civil forfeiture. Followed up by searching for [law enforcement agency] and union returns zero results for the worst locations. Police officers are unionized pretty much everywhere. Sheriffs, which carry out the most egregious civil asset forfeitures (usually in small travel-through towns), generally are not unionized outside of the big counties and states.
- unethical_ban 6y ago
  Your argument doesn't rebut mine. Mine: Unions have a direct, negative influence on the ability for departments/cities to fire bad cops. Yours: There is correlation, but not causation, between non-unionized police departments and instances of civil asset forfeiture.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    You're the one making the causal claim that unions are responsible for this. You need to prove your claim; I've already provided evidence that would refute the argument you would make.

handoflixue 6y ago

Do you have any evidence for your claim?

unethical_ban 6y ago

Tell me how that correlation is a causation. Public unions, and police unions specifically, are distinct in their impact on society from other unions. Police have negotiated the right to beat and murder people and keep their jobs with pay for months. There are cities where Derek Chauvin would have been on paid leave for weeks after killing george floyd. Minneapolis had the right to fire his ass when they saw how bad a cop he was.

gamblor956 6y ago
I agree that police unions can be problematic when it comes to disciplining bad cops. But don't blame them for something which is unrelated to the union itself. There are cities where Derek Chauvin would have been on paid leave for weeks after killing george floyd. Yes, and the police forces in those cities would all be unionized. Clearly, the issue is not the union; it is the city or county that negotiated poorly with the union. Though generally, in some states like the US Deep South, politicians are more than happy to give officers unlimited rights even without the unions requesting them. Minneapolis had the right to fire his ass when they saw how bad a cop he was. They fired him literally the next day. For prior incidents, none of them rose to the level justifying termination. That would have been true even in a non-union force.
- nerdponx 6y ago
  NYC has two police "unions" which openly and loudly protest against police reform, defend officers who commit civil rights abuses, and are really more like PR and lobbying organizations than good-faith collective bargaining apparatus for organized labor.