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I am still trying to grasp how Thiel intellectually went from ultra libertarian to American statist cofounder of Palantir. What happened? He realized the threa

I am still trying to grasp how Thiel intellectually went from ultra libertarian to American statist cofounder of Palantir. What happened? He realized the threat of China and changed his mind? He’s hedging his bets? He sees a strong American state as fundamentally necessary for libertarian values? No snarky replies please. I am genuinely curious.

davedx 6y ago
He doesn’t have a coherent or consistent politics. He’s just not that smart. Genuinely not being snarky - guy’s an effective entrepreneur but no kind of great political thinker
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  This is a snarky reply and specifically not what I asked for. I have watched quite a few videos with Thiel. He has degrees in law and philosophy and is quite financially successful. Thomas Jefferson he is not, but I don’t think he is “just not that smart.”
bitdizzy 6y ago
What people say are their values and the values revealed by their actions can be different. Moreover one can express certain values in pursuit of goals that are incompatible with those values. This is styled hypocrisy and the bourgeoisie such as Thiel are very used to this.
jeffreyrogers 6y ago
I have seen a recent interview (last few years) with him where he still refers to himself as a libertarian, but I agree that in practice he does not seem that way. He is heavily influenced by Leo Strauss[0] however, so he may be taking an "esoteric" view of what libertarianism means. [0]: Strauss was a political philosopher who advocated reading the "esoteric" meaning in works of literature. I.e. he thought that thinkers did not write what the actually thought but wrote in a veiled way so that their true meaning was apparent by those in the know, but not to casual readers.
gadf 6y ago
I think a man in his position, with the contracts, and connections and companies he has, is probably not allowed to hold certain opinions, such as being publicly bullish on China, in the current "climate". It's kind of sad to see him squeezed like that, but maybe it only looks that way. Perhaps his libertarianism extends only so far as the deep state can't blackmail him into doing their bidding. Or...maybe all he cares about is power and ambition, and he'll do whatever it takes to climb that ladder, integrity be damned. Which does seem "borderline autistic", perhaps unsurprisingly, because Thiel claims he's "on the spectrum." He's seeming more like a queer (in the old sense) J Edgar Hoover-type figure. I feel sorry for him.
jpttsn 6y ago
Honestly: I think it’s cogent to have an idea of what the world ought be like, and yet act in other ways to further your own goals. If it’s a prisoner’s dilemma, you might believe cooperation is the best way, and yet defect if you’re playing the game. Thiel’s choice would be between: Living out his libertarian beliefs in practice v. Taking opportunities in a big state world and making money. On the other end of some spectrum might be a radical minded idealist who wants the system to collapse but in practice still chooses to buy a laptop and goes to college. I’d venture many people have dreamy beliefs about politics that they nevertheless don’t pursue unilaterally.
dnissley 6y ago
Unlike a couple replies to this comment, I don't believe that Thiel is all that concerned about making money -- IIRC he would be far richer today if he had simply left his share of facebook in the market compared to the mix of investments he's made since then. And hey, who can blame him? Once you reach a certain point, it's surely not a big motivator. Better to lead an interesting life making interesting investments rather than tack on an extra X billion dollars doing diddly squat. On the other hand he does seem very interested in wielding his influence to create the world he wants to live in. See Trump, see Gawker for example. My hunch is that he's taking a wider view on liberty -- he sees it as under threat (by China, but also others -- including internal actors within the US), and doesn't trust that liberty will "sell itself" any more than he believes software will sell itself (see zero to one chapter 11). I don't know if he's wrong either -- if China can get the upper hand and solidify some amount of control over the United States, however soft, that could be a very bad thing indeed for liberty -- why not be a pragmatist and sacrifice a little now for a lot more later? The danger of course is if it's not temporary and becomes the seed of the United States own version of totalitarianism. Thiel is someone who has shown time and time again that he refuses to simply buy any particular narrative hook, line, and sinker. He's very woke to the danger in that kind of "feeling-thinking" combo -- and that goes for the libertarian narrative as well. He's shown himself to be willing to be pragmatic, even opportunistic in his attempts to stay ahead of things and sacrifice money in exchange for being in a position to shape the world. We, of course, see the times he's been right, but I'm far more curious about his failures -- based on how often he's been right I can only guess there are lots of them.
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  Thank you. This is exactly the sort of comment I was hoping for. I agree with most of what you say re: pragmatism, but I do think Palantir is a bit much. Unless he’s playing a meta-game and assuming that surveillance will be inevitable and it’s preferable to be in the driver’s seat than locked in the back.
  - dnissley 6y ago
    This is a big stretch, but I do wonder with Thiel's Christian background and his interest in Girard's mimetic theory that he sees himself as acting in a Christ-like manner -- strategically sacrificing himself again and again in order to save that which he loves, even if it doesn't love him back. The problem with that of course is the "strategically". He's made what seem to be deals with the devil on many occasions -- Trump being the obvious example, and having a hand in pardoning Levandowski being the most recent one. I'm not so sure that he's crossed the line into "evil villain" territory as many think, but is he headed that way? Maybe.

davedx 6y ago

He doesn’t have a coherent or consistent politics. He’s just not that smart. Genuinely not being snarky - guy’s an effective entrepreneur but no kind of great political thinker

ceilingcorner 6y ago
This is a snarky reply and specifically not what I asked for. I have watched quite a few videos with Thiel. He has degrees in law and philosophy and is quite financially successful. Thomas Jefferson he is not, but I don’t think he is “just not that smart.”

bitdizzy 6y ago

What people say are their values and the values revealed by their actions can be different. Moreover one can express certain values in pursuit of goals that are incompatible with those values. This is styled hypocrisy and the bourgeoisie such as Thiel are very used to this.

jeffreyrogers 6y ago

I have seen a recent interview (last few years) with him where he still refers to himself as a libertarian, but I agree that in practice he does not seem that way. He is heavily influenced by Leo Strauss[0] however, so he may be taking an "esoteric" view of what libertarianism means. [0]: Strauss was a political philosopher who advocated reading the "esoteric" meaning in works of literature. I.e. he thought that thinkers did not write what the actually thought but wrote in a veiled way so that their true meaning was apparent by those in the know, but not to casual readers.

gadf 6y ago

I think a man in his position, with the contracts, and connections and companies he has, is probably not allowed to hold certain opinions, such as being publicly bullish on China, in the current "climate". It's kind of sad to see him squeezed like that, but maybe it only looks that way. Perhaps his libertarianism extends only so far as the deep state can't blackmail him into doing their bidding. Or...maybe all he cares about is power and ambition, and he'll do whatever it takes to climb that ladder, integrity be damned. Which does seem "borderline autistic", perhaps unsurprisingly, because Thiel claims he's "on the spectrum." He's seeming more like a queer (in the old sense) J Edgar Hoover-type figure. I feel sorry for him.

jpttsn 6y ago

Honestly: I think it’s cogent to have an idea of what the world ought be like, and yet act in other ways to further your own goals. If it’s a prisoner’s dilemma, you might believe cooperation is the best way, and yet defect if you’re playing the game. Thiel’s choice would be between: Living out his libertarian beliefs in practice v. Taking opportunities in a big state world and making money. On the other end of some spectrum might be a radical minded idealist who wants the system to collapse but in practice still chooses to buy a laptop and goes to college. I’d venture many people have dreamy beliefs about politics that they nevertheless don’t pursue unilaterally.

dnissley 6y ago

Unlike a couple replies to this comment, I don't believe that Thiel is all that concerned about making money -- IIRC he would be far richer today if he had simply left his share of facebook in the market compared to the mix of investments he's made since then. And hey, who can blame him? Once you reach a certain point, it's surely not a big motivator. Better to lead an interesting life making interesting investments rather than tack on an extra X billion dollars doing diddly squat. On the other hand he does seem very interested in wielding his influence to create the world he wants to live in. See Trump, see Gawker for example. My hunch is that he's taking a wider view on liberty -- he sees it as under threat (by China, but also others -- including internal actors within the US), and doesn't trust that liberty will "sell itself" any more than he believes software will sell itself (see zero to one chapter 11). I don't know if he's wrong either -- if China can get the upper hand and solidify some amount of control over the United States, however soft, that could be a very bad thing indeed for liberty -- why not be a pragmatist and sacrifice a little now for a lot more later? The danger of course is if it's not temporary and becomes the seed of the United States own version of totalitarianism. Thiel is someone who has shown time and time again that he refuses to simply buy any particular narrative hook, line, and sinker. He's very woke to the danger in that kind of "feeling-thinking" combo -- and that goes for the libertarian narrative as well. He's shown himself to be willing to be pragmatic, even opportunistic in his attempts to stay ahead of things and sacrifice money in exchange for being in a position to shape the world. We, of course, see the times he's been right, but I'm far more curious about his failures -- based on how often he's been right I can only guess there are lots of them.

ceilingcorner 6y ago
Thank you. This is exactly the sort of comment I was hoping for. I agree with most of what you say re: pragmatism, but I do think Palantir is a bit much. Unless he’s playing a meta-game and assuming that surveillance will be inevitable and it’s preferable to be in the driver’s seat than locked in the back.
- dnissley 6y ago
  This is a big stretch, but I do wonder with Thiel's Christian background and his interest in Girard's mimetic theory that he sees himself as acting in a Christ-like manner -- strategically sacrificing himself again and again in order to save that which he loves, even if it doesn't love him back. The problem with that of course is the "strategically". He's made what seem to be deals with the devil on many occasions -- Trump being the obvious example, and having a hand in pardoning Levandowski being the most recent one. I'm not so sure that he's crossed the line into "evil villain" territory as many think, but is he headed that way? Maybe.