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I’d recommend a quick perusal of first amendment litigation in the early 20th century, it will disabuse you of the notion that we’re living in an unusual declin

I’d recommend a quick perusal of first amendment litigation in the early 20th century, it will disabuse you of the notion that we’re living in an unusual decline in liberty. For example the old saw about “you can’t shout fire in a crowded theater” is from a case where a man was prosecuted criminally for protesting the WW1 draft. We live in contentious times, but at least the government isn’t literally jailing people for protected speech and having the Supreme Court affirm their behavior. Or where there’s a standing house committee dedicated to detecting “Unamerican Activities” and creating explicit blacklists for Hollywood actors and writers based on their supposed political beliefs. Or where using the post office to educate people about birth control is a crime. We as a culture have a wildly incorrect view about how free our society was in the past. There have been points in our society where it was literally a crime to be a socialist or birth control advocate; whatever our flaws, we have much more personal liberty in terms of speech and ideas than most seem to realize.

nickysielicki 6y ago
I'd argue that there is no absolute measure of freedom, or at least, it doesn't matter relative to expectations and feelings of freedom. Expectations and feelings of freedom are widely different today than they used to be -- and we know this precisely because it's a popular thing to say. Everyone complains about cancel culture and mask mandates and vaccination passports and so-on. McCarthyism in the past didn't have any impact whatsoever on the average suburban family. Now, though, with social media and with everyone living as the main character of their life, "cancel culture" does. There's a deeply libertarian undertone to rural America and it has never gone away. The loss of freedom for socialists in the 1950s didn't matter. "Shouting fire in a crowded theater" and the subsequent overturn of that case didn't matter. Draft dodging didn't matter. What's going on today does.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  > Everyone complains about cancel culture and mask mandates and vaccination passports and so-on. There are also complaints about “kids these days” stretching all the way back to Plato. People can, and do, complain about things in a way that does not conform with any form of objective reality. We need a more rigorous way of discussing these things that goes beyond common complaints and memes. > McCarthyism in the past didn't have any impact whatsoever on the average suburban family. Now, though, with social media and with everyone living as the main character of their life, "cancel culture" does. I think you need to read more about the red scare before making such proclamations. 15,000 people lost their federal jobs during the red scare, and hundreds were jailed over their political beliefs. If you don’t think that would have a chilling effect, I’m not sure what to tell you.

nickysielicki 6y ago

I'd argue that there is no absolute measure of freedom, or at least, it doesn't matter relative to expectations and feelings of freedom. Expectations and feelings of freedom are widely different today than they used to be -- and we know this precisely because it's a popular thing to say. Everyone complains about cancel culture and mask mandates and vaccination passports and so-on. McCarthyism in the past didn't have any impact whatsoever on the average suburban family. Now, though, with social media and with everyone living as the main character of their life, "cancel culture" does. There's a deeply libertarian undertone to rural America and it has never gone away. The loss of freedom for socialists in the 1950s didn't matter. "Shouting fire in a crowded theater" and the subsequent overturn of that case didn't matter. Draft dodging didn't matter. What's going on today does.

ashtonkem 6y ago
> Everyone complains about cancel culture and mask mandates and vaccination passports and so-on. There are also complaints about “kids these days” stretching all the way back to Plato. People can, and do, complain about things in a way that does not conform with any form of objective reality. We need a more rigorous way of discussing these things that goes beyond common complaints and memes. > McCarthyism in the past didn't have any impact whatsoever on the average suburban family. Now, though, with social media and with everyone living as the main character of their life, "cancel culture" does. I think you need to read more about the red scare before making such proclamations. 15,000 people lost their federal jobs during the red scare, and hundreds were jailed over their political beliefs. If you don’t think that would have a chilling effect, I’m not sure what to tell you.