5 ms·

I put it in quotes to try and avoid this type of retort. Whether or not they're still used or are now considered inappropriate, the meaning behind the terms has

by kjakm 6y ago

I put it in quotes to try and avoid this type of retort. Whether or not they're still used or are now considered inappropriate, the meaning behind the terms hasn't changed. FWIW I still see the terms used occasionally in the UK with 'Master' being used for an unmarried male.

rectang 6y ago
The explanation which you present as settled usage is wrong and dated. There are too many women who will (rightly in my view) take offense at being titled Miss or Mrs. — so using such titles is only "appropriate" if you are deliberately trying to anger some portion of the population. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/29/gender.uk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/29/gender.uk > Miss and Mrs are marks of the old world, reminders of women's second-class status as wives-to-be (Miss) or simply wives (Mrs). If you are a woman who doesn't use Ms - particularly a woman under 30 who has never even thought of it - then ponder this: how do you want to present yourself to the world? Are you an appendage or an appendage-in-waiting? Don't be branded and marked by old-world convention. Let's kick against those fools at companies such as Atlantic Data. Let's put two fingers up to employers and bureaucrats who want to define us by our marital status. Choose Miss and you are condemned to childish immaturity. Choose Mrs and be condemned as some guy's chattel. Choose Ms and you become an adult woman in charge of your whole life.
- jpttsn 6y ago
  Is the link your best available evidence?
  - rectang 6y ago
    The link is an example of a woman eloquently explaining why she prefers "Ms". It is not meant as "evidence" to support my assertion that there are many such women, as that's uncontroversial in most circles. However, HN is overwhelmingly male (and threads like these illustrate why it is likely to stay that way), so what is obvious elsewhere may not be obvious here.
- brabel 6y ago
  > so using such titles is only "appropriate" if you are deliberately trying to anger some portion of the population. It seems to me that the passengers themselves were selecting their own title.
- kodah 6y ago
  > There are too many women who will (rightly in my view) take offense at being titled Miss or Mrs. — so using such titles is only "appropriate" if you are deliberately trying to anger some portion of the population. I still say sir, mam, mister, and miss (Mrs is generally considered unneeded and overly formal) because I come from a culture that finds them not only to be appropriate but pretty standard, especially when dealing with strangers. You find that declaring them universally acceptable is wrong, but if you came to my state you'd also be equally wrong, and maybe rude. I do understand that peoples attitudes over generations will change about words. That seems to be the natural evolution of languages, but it also seems we've never overtly adopted a system that deprecates language outside of outrage, which seems inappropriate in itself if you're getting angry with someone who is going out of their way, in their mind, to treat you with respect.
Cd00d 6y ago
I actually thought Master referred to a child male. I didn't realize it was the male unmarried equivalent of the old Miss. My family has an interesting habit of addressing mail to my children by these titles. I don't know why or when they started it, but I myself, was never addressed as Master, yet my son is.
- kjakm 6y ago
  I may have been wrong. Apparently it varies by country but in the UK Master is a male < 18 and in the US < 12. I have had it used in relation to myself though when I was in my 20’s so convention around it seems a bit unclear.

by kjakm 6y ago

rectang 6y ago

The explanation which you present as settled usage is wrong and dated. There are too many women who will (rightly in my view) take offense at being titled Miss or Mrs. — so using such titles is only "appropriate" if you are deliberately trying to anger some portion of the population. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/29/gender.uk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/29/gender.uk > Miss and Mrs are marks of the old world, reminders of women's second-class status as wives-to-be (Miss) or simply wives (Mrs). If you are a woman who doesn't use Ms - particularly a woman under 30 who has never even thought of it - then ponder this: how do you want to present yourself to the world? Are you an appendage or an appendage-in-waiting? Don't be branded and marked by old-world convention. Let's kick against those fools at companies such as Atlantic Data. Let's put two fingers up to employers and bureaucrats who want to define us by our marital status. Choose Miss and you are condemned to childish immaturity. Choose Mrs and be condemned as some guy's chattel. Choose Ms and you become an adult woman in charge of your whole life.

jpttsn 6y ago
Is the link your best available evidence?
- rectang 6y ago
  The link is an example of a woman eloquently explaining why she prefers "Ms". It is not meant as "evidence" to support my assertion that there are many such women, as that's uncontroversial in most circles. However, HN is overwhelmingly male (and threads like these illustrate why it is likely to stay that way), so what is obvious elsewhere may not be obvious here.
brabel 6y ago
> so using such titles is only "appropriate" if you are deliberately trying to anger some portion of the population. It seems to me that the passengers themselves were selecting their own title.
kodah 6y ago
> There are too many women who will (rightly in my view) take offense at being titled Miss or Mrs. — so using such titles is only "appropriate" if you are deliberately trying to anger some portion of the population. I still say sir, mam, mister, and miss (Mrs is generally considered unneeded and overly formal) because I come from a culture that finds them not only to be appropriate but pretty standard, especially when dealing with strangers. You find that declaring them universally acceptable is wrong, but if you came to my state you'd also be equally wrong, and maybe rude. I do understand that peoples attitudes over generations will change about words. That seems to be the natural evolution of languages, but it also seems we've never overtly adopted a system that deprecates language outside of outrage, which seems inappropriate in itself if you're getting angry with someone who is going out of their way, in their mind, to treat you with respect.

Cd00d 6y ago

I actually thought Master referred to a child male. I didn't realize it was the male unmarried equivalent of the old Miss. My family has an interesting habit of addressing mail to my children by these titles. I don't know why or when they started it, but I myself, was never addressed as Master, yet my son is.

kjakm 6y ago
I may have been wrong. Apparently it varies by country but in the UK Master is a male < 18 and in the US < 12. I have had it used in relation to myself though when I was in my 20’s so convention around it seems a bit unclear.