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>> Following this serious incident, the operator introduced a daily check to ensure adult females were referred to as Ms on the relevant documentation, with a s
by kjakm 6y ago
>> Following this serious incident, the operator introduced a daily check to ensure adult females were referred to as Ms on the relevant documentation, with a secondary check by Operations staff against passenger loads. A more formal system of checks was introduced on 24 July 2020.
Surely the solution is to fix the software? Miss is the 'appropriate' title for an unmarried woman or girl. Why not have a person select 'adult' or 'child' when booking (I'm pretty sure most airlines I fly with do this already).
- steerablesafe 6y agoI'm pretty sure I give precise date of birth already every time I fly.
- rantwasp 6y agoMiss. This is not how we do things around here /s
- shadowgovt 6y agoIt's fascinating that this issue occurred; I'd be shocked if the gestalt of data doesn't have enough information to know every passenger's age. Pure speculation on my part, but it may be a data-hiding issue - if they realized late in design that the passenger manifest system had to feed into the weight estimator, but the passenger manifest (for privacy reasons, or simple "Don't access more data than you need" coding best-practices reasons) only had access to passenger names, surnames, prefixes, and IDs. It shouldn't have happened (clearly, that's the point an engineer should be pulling the red lever on schedule and doing the work to get the data that's needed to the service that needs it, including clearing legal hurdles for privacy, if necessary), but I can easily imagine it happening if quality took a back-seat to deadlines.
- V-2 6y agoIt appears to stem from wrong translation: "The incident occurred due to a simple flaw in the programming of the IT system, which was due to the meaning of the title ‘Miss’ being interpreted by the system as a child and not an adult female. This was because in the country where the system was programmed, Miss is a child and Ms is an adult female." Not sure what the country in question is - the report doesn't name it.
- dlgeek 6y agoI assume the UK, since the location is given as Birmingham Airport and it's a British-registered plane.
- throwaway3699 6y agoOkay but that literally isn't a social convention that holds in the UK.
- memorysafety 6y agoNope. That assumption is wrong. > The system programming was not carried out in the UK, and in the country where it was performed the title Miss was used for a child, and Ms for an adult female, hence the error.
- jiofih 6y agoThat seems correct though - Miss is the appropriate title for a under 18y old.
- sgerenser 6y agoIn what country is Miss used for under 18 and Ms. for over? In the US and UK, Miss just means "unmarried woman" no matter the age. So yes, its appropriate for an under 18y old, but its also appropriate for an over 18 year old.
- memorysafety 6y agoI cannot quite exclude another idea, that the age-related framing of the mistake is simply a cover-up for a much more prosaic error, perhaps of embarassing quality. "Cultural differences" is an easy scapegoat.
- jiofih 6y agoYes, but you wouldn’t choose to use Ms. for a 8-year old. So if you’re presented with Ms. and Miss as options in a form, and neither has to do with marriage status, it’s natural that Miss will refer to the young.
- saurik 6y agoWell, an unmarried woman is "supposed to be" (if we are going to care about these ridiculously sexist honorifics) "Ms" (and the software specifically did work if this was used).
- dragonwriter 6y agoMs. is actually the title that was promoted as a less-sexist alternative to Miss/Mrs. which, like Mr., does not depend on marital status. Miss is the one specific to unmarried women.
- kjakm 6y agoI believe Ms. is also used in cases where you are unsure of marital status and don't want to 'offend' by assuming either Miss or Mrs.
- rectang 6y agoEven if you guess the marital status "right", you will still offend many. Why should women be defined according to marital status, especially when men are not?
- kjakm 6y agoUnmarried men occasionally get the title 'Master' although I've only come across that in more formal situations. I also never said we should or shouldn't use the terms. I don't have an opinion on that and it's not a debate or argument I'm going to waste my time on. I was simply explaining how they are conventionally used. This kind of thing was taught in schools as recently as 20 years ago as part of explanations on how to write and format letters.
- chromatin 6y agoIIRC the title Master is for boys 12 and under.
- therealcamino 6y agoYeah, you shouldn't be estimating weight based on a social nicety that's interpreted differently across cultures and by people of different generations.
- rectang 6y ago> Miss is the 'appropriate' title for an unmarried woman or girl. Not since decades in the US at least. Women are not titled according to their marital status.
- jfk13 6y agoMiss Manners begs to differ.
- kjakm 6y agoI put it in quotes to try and avoid this type of retort. Whether or not they're still used or are now considered inappropriate, the meaning behind the terms hasn't changed. FWIW I still see the terms used occasionally in the UK with 'Master' being used for an unmarried male.
- rectang 6y agoThe explanation which you present as settled usage is wrong and dated. There are too many women who will (rightly in my view) take offense at being titled Miss or Mrs. — so using such titles is only "appropriate" if you are deliberately trying to anger some portion of the population. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/29/gender.uk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/29/gender.uk > Miss and Mrs are marks of the old world, reminders of women's second-class status as wives-to-be (Miss) or simply wives (Mrs). If you are a woman who doesn't use Ms - particularly a woman under 30 who has never even thought of it - then ponder this: how do you want to present yourself to the world? Are you an appendage or an appendage-in-waiting? Don't be branded and marked by old-world convention. Let's kick against those fools at companies such as Atlantic Data. Let's put two fingers up to employers and bureaucrats who want to define us by our marital status. Choose Miss and you are condemned to childish immaturity. Choose Mrs and be condemned as some guy's chattel. Choose Ms and you become an adult woman in charge of your whole life.
- jpttsn 6y agoIs the link your best available evidence?
- tyingq 6y agoIs there any way to fly without supplying your date of birth these days?
- matt-attack 6y agoBut if you’re after weight why ask for crude proxies for weight? Adult v child is worse than “age”. But why not ask for weight if you’re after it?