7 ms·

A rowdy unarmed (not a single firearm) mob is not an “insurrection”. I’m not condoning what happened, but can we please stop using hyperbolic language?

rising-sky 6y ago
Not a single firearm? https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/17/politics/capitol-insurrection-weapons-ron-johnson/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/17/politics/capitol-insurrection... However, I'm not sure where you got the "opinion" that an insurrection must be carried out with a firearm? You can do a quick Google search for the definition of the term. Here's one from the Cambridge dictionary > an organized attempt by a group of people to defeat their government and take control of their country, usually by violence https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/insurrection https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/insurrec...
- deleted 6y ago
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- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  A protest that was larger than expected and overran the existing security isn't exactly an organized attempt.
  - ngokevin 6y ago
    Upon watching the evidence and trial, it's clear it was organized. They had Save the Dates months ahead (at the exact time the election was being certified) with continued rhetoric that the election was stolen and that they had to march to the Capitol and fight.
    - tryonenow 6y ago
      Literally everything you're describing would be identical to that of a preplanned protest. The implication of "organization" is that of a plan for "insurrection", for which there is no proof of premeditation.
    - TeeMassive 6y ago
      > with continued rhetoric that the election was stolen and that they had to march to the Capitol and fight. None of which are proof of a planned insurrection. Of all the meanings you only picked the ones that fitted your predetermined conclusion. Believing the "election was stolen" is an opinion that comes up every elections from both sides. "Marching" most often means marches, which is a peaceful demonstration in itself, and the Capitol is not just the Capitol building, it's also the Capitol Grounds and the surrounding areas. Fighting is a term often used colloquial non-violent way, as in "fight cancer" and "fighting for civil rights".
- nfyjkbxa 6y ago
  Organized, it says right there. You think that mob was organized? There was no plan Also, your CNN citation says in the headline that there was a gun found, but then the body of the article contradicts it > Some of the weapons that were confiscated had been seen being used inside the US Capitol including a baseball bat, a fire extinguisher, a wooden club, a spear, crutches, a flagpole, bear spray, mace, chemical irritants, stolen police shields, a wooden beam, a hockey stick, a stun gun, and knives. Where're the guns? CNN knows people only read headlines; they're so brazen with their narrative. After they claimed over and over that Sicknick was killed with a fire extinguisher based on zero evidence for weeks there's no reason to trust the rest of these details in an article from February are true anyway, especially if CNN can't keep the facts straight between the headline and the article body
  - castis 6y ago
    It is absurd to assume that there were zero firearms of any kind at that event. There aren't zero firearms at children's birthday parties.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - aigen001 6y ago
    Here's your gun. https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/case-multi-defendant/file/1364751/download https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/case-multi-defendant/file/13...
    - TeeMassive 6y ago
      > within the District of Columbia Nothings in your court case says anything about the Capitol building.
      - CapnTrips 6y ago
        >On or about January 6, 2021, within the District of Columbia, CHRISTOPHER ALBERTS, did carry and have readily accessible, a firearm, that is, a Taurus G2C semi-automatic handgun, on the United States Capitol Grounds and in any of the Capitol Buildings. In the same sentence you quoted
- jkhdigital 6y ago
  I stand corrected: a single Taurus G2C 9mm with 25 rounds was confiscated from a man exiting the Capitol. One firearm, not zero.
imnotlost 6y ago
Maybe if it happened on a random Tuesday in April or whatever, but it did happen at a very specific time, didn't it?
TylerE 6y ago
Oh, come on. They broke into the Capitol building, and in to the Senate chambers, while congress was in session.
- caseysoftware 6y ago
  Everyone knows that if you reside at the podium for 10 seconds uninterrupted, you become the President of the Senate and can issue any rules you want. We're just lucky they didn't get the Gavel of Power too! Or.. in the real world, we understand how the US political system works, realize there was no real "insurrection," and we rightly call it a bunch of jackasses trespassing. Your call.
  - bitmunk 6y ago
    They chanted about executing your VP.
    - Kim_Bruning 6y ago
      https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/noose-hung-outside-capitol/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/noose-hung-outside-capitol... Wasn't an idle threat either.
  - cloverich 6y ago
    I appreciate your perspective, but would argue you are overestimating the stability of our system. Also its not like those "jackasses" came out of nowhere... they were part of a protest organized by the sitting President to protest... the outcome of a typical election.
ngokevin 6y ago
I watched the whole trial, it's pretty hard to excuse. Even GOP minority senate leader agreed he was guilty of inciting insurrection (despite voting not to convict on a technicality he created). Sorry if it doesn't match up with your worldview.
diob 6y ago
This is just moving the goal posts (not to mention plenty of weapons and threats were involved). In all seriousness, at what point would you call something an insurrection? Go ahead and define it now, that way in the future when "X" happens you can't reply with "X is bad, but it's not an insurrection". I'm being completely serious, please define insurrection, in your terms, so that in the future I can identify it accurately. I feel like this has to be the first thing we do with folks who constantly say "X isn't Y". Okay, define how something gets classified as Y.
- tryonenow 6y ago
  A mob occupying private land, for weeks (months?), and declaring autonomy under a radical, explicitly and overtly anti-american, revolutionary flag, threatening and ejecting any approaching officials, including medical services, with violence. Particularly when this mob is affiliated with a decentralized network throughout the united states with similar goals. Storming the capitol with weapons, having leaders with knowledge of the layout, and actually spilling blood. The picture of the right in this country by media is generally a caricature of an inbred, uneducated southern hick, so it's easy to pretend that they planned for a serious coup and we're just completely incompetent. But the lack of weapons in any significant quantity, or their use, or even their brandishing in the capitol, suggests that there were never any serious plans for a coup or even for violence. The fact that "insurrectionists" came within 5 feet of the entrance to the chamber with the politicians they were allegedly targetting and obliviously walked past it more likely shows that there was no serious preparation, given that the layout is easily searchable online. This is manufactured hysteria by the media, for political goals. It comes from the same place as this twitch policy - we are in the midst of a dirty culture war.
  - weswpg 6y ago
    > there was no serious preparation "Oh, please. Attempted murder? They don't give the Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry!"
- jimbob45 6y ago
  You asked a well-considered question and got a stupid response. What a waste. My definition would be rioting, specifically using escalating violence until success, to attempt to coerce a system into passing laws that it would not otherwise have passed or wanted to pass (up to and including deposing the leader). I feel like my view loosely fits the Capitol riot, heavily fits the BLM riots, and heavily fits the 1776 insurrection.
PhasmaFelis 6y ago
"Many in the crowd attacking the Capitol have said their intent was to stop the vote confirmation and keep Trump in office despite the election results. That’s an insurrection." https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/15/ron-johnson/yes-jan-6-capitol-assault-was-armed-insurrection/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/15/ron-johnso...) "Unarmed" is definitely false, per the other comments: the FBI confiscated "a baseball bat, a fire extinguisher, a wooden club, a spear, crutches, a flagpole, bear spray, mace, chemical irritants, stolen police shields, a wooden beam, a hockey stick, a stun gun, and knives." But several people seem to be arguing that only firearms count. In that case: Christopher Alberts was arrested with a handgun and charged with unlawful possession of a firearm on Capitol grounds. Grant Moore was found an with unlicensed gun in his vehicle near the Capitol; Lonnie Leroy Coffman, the same, except it was multiple guns and 11 Molotov cocktails. (Source for all: https://www.usatoday.com/storytelling/capitol-riot-mob-arrests/ https://www.usatoday.com/storytelling/capitol-riot-mob-arres...) We can all be thankful he didn't use them, but a person who goes to a protest with Molotovs does not have personal defense in mind.
- PhasmaFelis 6y ago
  One more for future reference: Cleveland Meredith apparently arrived too late for the riot, but was arrested the day after with two unregistered guns after threatening to "put a bullet in [Pelosi's] noggin on live TV.”
IgorPartola 6y ago
Oh come on. You have to keep your head pretty deep in the sand to think this was just tourists wandering through the Capitol. They killed a police officer and were chanting that they wanted to kill the VP and Speaker of the House. They flew a confederate flag inside the Capitol. Stop making excuses for traitors.

rising-sky 6y ago

Not a single firearm? https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/17/politics/capitol-insurrection-weapons-ron-johnson/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/17/politics/capitol-insurrection... However, I'm not sure where you got the "opinion" that an insurrection must be carried out with a firearm? You can do a quick Google search for the definition of the term. Here's one from the Cambridge dictionary > an organized attempt by a group of people to defeat their government and take control of their country, usually by violence https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/insurrection https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/insurrec...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
A protest that was larger than expected and overran the existing security isn't exactly an organized attempt.
- ngokevin 6y ago
  Upon watching the evidence and trial, it's clear it was organized. They had Save the Dates months ahead (at the exact time the election was being certified) with continued rhetoric that the election was stolen and that they had to march to the Capitol and fight.
  - tryonenow 6y ago
    Literally everything you're describing would be identical to that of a preplanned protest. The implication of "organization" is that of a plan for "insurrection", for which there is no proof of premeditation.
  - TeeMassive 6y ago
    > with continued rhetoric that the election was stolen and that they had to march to the Capitol and fight. None of which are proof of a planned insurrection. Of all the meanings you only picked the ones that fitted your predetermined conclusion. Believing the "election was stolen" is an opinion that comes up every elections from both sides. "Marching" most often means marches, which is a peaceful demonstration in itself, and the Capitol is not just the Capitol building, it's also the Capitol Grounds and the surrounding areas. Fighting is a term often used colloquial non-violent way, as in "fight cancer" and "fighting for civil rights".
nfyjkbxa 6y ago
Organized, it says right there. You think that mob was organized? There was no plan Also, your CNN citation says in the headline that there was a gun found, but then the body of the article contradicts it > Some of the weapons that were confiscated had been seen being used inside the US Capitol including a baseball bat, a fire extinguisher, a wooden club, a spear, crutches, a flagpole, bear spray, mace, chemical irritants, stolen police shields, a wooden beam, a hockey stick, a stun gun, and knives. Where're the guns? CNN knows people only read headlines; they're so brazen with their narrative. After they claimed over and over that Sicknick was killed with a fire extinguisher based on zero evidence for weeks there's no reason to trust the rest of these details in an article from February are true anyway, especially if CNN can't keep the facts straight between the headline and the article body
- castis 6y ago
  It is absurd to assume that there were zero firearms of any kind at that event. There aren't zero firearms at children's birthday parties.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- aigen001 6y ago
  Here's your gun. https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/case-multi-defendant/file/1364751/download https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/case-multi-defendant/file/13...
  - TeeMassive 6y ago
    > within the District of Columbia Nothings in your court case says anything about the Capitol building.
    - CapnTrips 6y ago
      >On or about January 6, 2021, within the District of Columbia, CHRISTOPHER ALBERTS, did carry and have readily accessible, a firearm, that is, a Taurus G2C semi-automatic handgun, on the United States Capitol Grounds and in any of the Capitol Buildings. In the same sentence you quoted
jkhdigital 6y ago
I stand corrected: a single Taurus G2C 9mm with 25 rounds was confiscated from a man exiting the Capitol. One firearm, not zero.

imnotlost 6y ago

Maybe if it happened on a random Tuesday in April or whatever, but it did happen at a very specific time, didn't it?

TylerE 6y ago

Oh, come on. They broke into the Capitol building, and in to the Senate chambers, while congress was in session.

caseysoftware 6y ago
Everyone knows that if you reside at the podium for 10 seconds uninterrupted, you become the President of the Senate and can issue any rules you want. We're just lucky they didn't get the Gavel of Power too! Or.. in the real world, we understand how the US political system works, realize there was no real "insurrection," and we rightly call it a bunch of jackasses trespassing. Your call.
- bitmunk 6y ago
  They chanted about executing your VP.
  - Kim_Bruning 6y ago
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/noose-hung-outside-capitol/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/noose-hung-outside-capitol... Wasn't an idle threat either.
- cloverich 6y ago
  I appreciate your perspective, but would argue you are overestimating the stability of our system. Also its not like those "jackasses" came out of nowhere... they were part of a protest organized by the sitting President to protest... the outcome of a typical election.

ngokevin 6y ago

I watched the whole trial, it's pretty hard to excuse. Even GOP minority senate leader agreed he was guilty of inciting insurrection (despite voting not to convict on a technicality he created). Sorry if it doesn't match up with your worldview.

diob 6y ago

This is just moving the goal posts (not to mention plenty of weapons and threats were involved). In all seriousness, at what point would you call something an insurrection? Go ahead and define it now, that way in the future when "X" happens you can't reply with "X is bad, but it's not an insurrection". I'm being completely serious, please define insurrection, in your terms, so that in the future I can identify it accurately. I feel like this has to be the first thing we do with folks who constantly say "X isn't Y". Okay, define how something gets classified as Y.

tryonenow 6y ago
A mob occupying private land, for weeks (months?), and declaring autonomy under a radical, explicitly and overtly anti-american, revolutionary flag, threatening and ejecting any approaching officials, including medical services, with violence. Particularly when this mob is affiliated with a decentralized network throughout the united states with similar goals. Storming the capitol with weapons, having leaders with knowledge of the layout, and actually spilling blood. The picture of the right in this country by media is generally a caricature of an inbred, uneducated southern hick, so it's easy to pretend that they planned for a serious coup and we're just completely incompetent. But the lack of weapons in any significant quantity, or their use, or even their brandishing in the capitol, suggests that there were never any serious plans for a coup or even for violence. The fact that "insurrectionists" came within 5 feet of the entrance to the chamber with the politicians they were allegedly targetting and obliviously walked past it more likely shows that there was no serious preparation, given that the layout is easily searchable online. This is manufactured hysteria by the media, for political goals. It comes from the same place as this twitch policy - we are in the midst of a dirty culture war.
- weswpg 6y ago
  > there was no serious preparation "Oh, please. Attempted murder? They don't give the Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry!"
jimbob45 6y ago
You asked a well-considered question and got a stupid response. What a waste. My definition would be rioting, specifically using escalating violence until success, to attempt to coerce a system into passing laws that it would not otherwise have passed or wanted to pass (up to and including deposing the leader). I feel like my view loosely fits the Capitol riot, heavily fits the BLM riots, and heavily fits the 1776 insurrection.

PhasmaFelis 6y ago

"Many in the crowd attacking the Capitol have said their intent was to stop the vote confirmation and keep Trump in office despite the election results. That’s an insurrection." https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/15/ron-johnson/yes-jan-6-capitol-assault-was-armed-insurrection/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/15/ron-johnso...) "Unarmed" is definitely false, per the other comments: the FBI confiscated "a baseball bat, a fire extinguisher, a wooden club, a spear, crutches, a flagpole, bear spray, mace, chemical irritants, stolen police shields, a wooden beam, a hockey stick, a stun gun, and knives." But several people seem to be arguing that only firearms count. In that case: Christopher Alberts was arrested with a handgun and charged with unlawful possession of a firearm on Capitol grounds. Grant Moore was found an with unlicensed gun in his vehicle near the Capitol; Lonnie Leroy Coffman, the same, except it was multiple guns and 11 Molotov cocktails. (Source for all: https://www.usatoday.com/storytelling/capitol-riot-mob-arrests/ https://www.usatoday.com/storytelling/capitol-riot-mob-arres...) We can all be thankful he didn't use them, but a person who goes to a protest with Molotovs does not have personal defense in mind.

PhasmaFelis 6y ago
One more for future reference: Cleveland Meredith apparently arrived too late for the riot, but was arrested the day after with two unregistered guns after threatening to "put a bullet in [Pelosi's] noggin on live TV.”

IgorPartola 6y ago

Oh come on. You have to keep your head pretty deep in the sand to think this was just tourists wandering through the Capitol. They killed a police officer and were chanting that they wanted to kill the VP and Speaker of the House. They flew a confederate flag inside the Capitol. Stop making excuses for traitors.