8 ms·

I love my not-smart TV

50 points by tagawa 6y ago

KingMachiavelli 6y ago
We aren't at peak TV-as-spy-device yet. I was able to get a flagship 2020 model TV and all basic functions work without a internet connection. It actually can be connected for firmware updates but as long as the ToS isn't accepted all 'smart' features are disabled. If you want dumb-dumb, a good projector is a much better option. There's no need to sacrifice quality in pursuit of privacy... yet.
- throwawayay02 6y ago
  Except one day you'll connect it just for a firmware or security update, and get a bricked TV, or accepting the ToS will no longer matter. And rolling back will be impossible.
  - rakoo 6y ago
    Another day after that you'll have learned your lesson and never connected it to your wifi, but the manufacturer included a SIM that connnects to the internet on its own. You want to remove it but the TV asks you to put it back and won't boot into a usable state until it is connected to the mothership. Also please open an account on Samsun MySmartTV and login to it otherwise it's black screen for you. Manufacturers are already looking into the first part and HP has implemented the second part with their newest print service (https://medium.com/@amandam_95165/what-you-dont-know-about-hp-instant-ink-until-it-s-too-late-fb730e752ab4 https://medium.com/@amandam_95165/what-you-dont-know-about-h...)
    - detaro 6y ago
      Not a good example: You can use a HP printer just fine without an account. You just need to buy ink cartridges for it, instead of using the optional subscription service.
- gumby 6y ago
  If you’re not using the so-called “smart” features do you even need a firmware update?
b15h0p 6y ago
Can anyone recommend a decent streaming client to make a dumb TV or a Beamer "smart"? I have an ancient PS3, but it's kinda noisy and I am afraid it will stop working for Netflix, considering Sony will soon shut down the PS3 Store. Also, there is no Disney+ on the PS3. * AppleTV is really long in the tooth right now * Amazon hardware is probably slow * Google knows too much about me, anyways * Raspberry PI/Kodi is probably fiddly (btw. I am in Germany, so not all hardware might be available here).
- simonmales 6y ago
  Using LibreELEC myself. It's designed to be less fiddly than RPi/Kodi. I'm also in Germany but not using Netflix so no idea how well it is supported. My favourite thing is my tiny little device: Cubox i4pro. Bought it five years ago and still humming along well. Though support is kind of suffering. But the list of hardware that LibreELEC supports well looks interesting.
- jleahy 6y ago
  Have a look at the OSMC Vero 4k.
  - b15h0p 6y ago
    That seems to be geared towards the UK market (the AC adaptor has a british plug and it is not available on the german Amazon store). Am I overlooking something?
    - jleahy 6y ago
      Well I'm in the UK, so probably I'm missing something. I'm sure you could get a different plug.
- paxys 6y ago
  I have the latest Fire Stick 4K and it works great. Zero lag or sluggishness, and I got it for like $30.
m01 6y ago
For those looking for the model, the author posted it here: https://twitter.com/ericwbailey/status/1379980899090071554 https://twitter.com/ericwbailey/status/1379980899090071554
- yellowapple 6y ago
  For those looking for the model and can't access Twitter for some reason (like in my case; I had to pull up a device that wasn't on my work VPN ;) ): > It's a Sceptre 43" X435BV-FSRCC
pornel 6y ago
BTW, it's a Free Software issue. "Smartness" of the TV is not the problem. It's the fact that it forces on you software with anti-features, and you can't do anything about it.
- swiley 6y ago
  Sure but a free smart TV would just be a TV with a built-in PC and that's a bit silly. There's something attractive about the abusive software in devices like these.
  - pornel 6y ago
    There's nothing silly about it. Chipsets these days are so cheap and common, that it'd be really hard to find one that can't be a "PC". Modern HDMI with HDR/Dolby/compression is already pretty complex and requires quite a bit of software/firmware. Even if most of the processing was done with DSPs, I assume it'd be hard to manage all of that without any CPU. And if you wanted anything nicer, like streaming media straight from a NAS, "casting" to the TV, or Bluetooth speakers, then it'd need a non-trivial OS anyway (and there's nothing wrong with such features when they're not used as an excuse for DRM and surveillance).
- selfhoster11 6y ago
  Tivoization and Free Software are orthogonal issues. Having full system sources means nothing when the TV most likely locks out any third party OSes.
  - yellowapple 6y ago
    > Tivoization and Free Software are orthogonal issues. Not really. Tivoization actively hinders software freedom, namely because... > Having full system sources means nothing when the TV most likely locks out any third party OSes. ...of this exact reason.
    - selfhoster11 6y ago
thecopy 6y ago
If you want a new stylish TV, i can recommend Samsung "The Frame". It is a 4K TV which you can hang on the wall and it looks like a painting. Note that you absolutely must not connect it to the internet nor accept any agreements or policies. It then becomes a "dumb" TV which displays art when turned off. Then connect Apple TV to make use of it.
- sneak 6y ago
  An Apple TV can't be used without an Apple ID, which requires a phone number to create, and transmits the unchangeable Apple TV hardware serial number to Apple like a supercookie you can never delete. It's just trading one type of tracking for another. At least your smart TV isn't demanding your phone number (which is a simple data broker API lookup to name, address, purchase history, income level, et c...).
  - asdff 6y ago
    I don't think tracking is the concern here, it's advertisement that a lot of these smart TVs have been adding to their menu systems. Apple TV or smart TV, those services you hook into like Netflix are tracking your behavior anyway; that's a given. Your behavior is also tracked on Hackernews or any website you visit. Advertisement on the other hand, is a new thing with smart TVs that people try and avoid through the dumb TV.
callesgg 6y ago
Don’t connect it to the internet and your fine. Sure if you are Edward Snowden or some famous person I get it, people are out to get you. You are not going to change the world, just buy the cheep tv and use it as a dumb tv.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > Don’t connect it to the internet and your fine. Assuming the TV won't connect anyway, e.g. by actively wardriving for unsecured wi-fi or by shipping with a cellular modem.
  - asdff 6y ago
    You mean you haven't lead lined your home yet?
- lolsal 6y ago
  Please read the article. There are lots of points made about smart TVs that go beyond internet access.
bni 6y ago
I wish TVs could compete on Picture quality, how quickly it turns on and off, how sleek and minimalistic UI it has for picture settings. But sadly this is not the world we live in.
- Tagbert 6y ago
  Most of them seem to compete on picture quality but I’m not sure that we have a consensus on what “quality” means in this case. Buyers often prefer screens where the contrast and saturation are artificially enhanced so that is the default setting for many TVs.
  - bni 6y ago
    There are ways to measure picture quality in unbiased way. I think this put it nicely: "However, it is important to emphasize that with calibration we use industry standards as goals. When a TV is told to reproduce a certain shade of purple, it must produce exactly this color. Nothing else. It is not up to the manufacturer to interpret or “improve”, which unfortunately is a common misconception about picture reproduction." From: https://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1229335089 https://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id...
carlhjerpe 6y ago
I've heard of a brand called swedx that makes dumb TVs, I don't know if they're expensive or how well they work since I've never bought a new TV in my life, but here's the website (kinda iffy) if someone is interested in checking them out, probably EU only. https://www.swedx.se/index.php?cPath=133_12800038 https://www.swedx.se/index.php?cPath=133_12800038
- yellowapple 6y ago
  It'd be nice if I could check shipping costs/ability before entering a bunch of personal info, but I guess that's life. But yeah, doesn't look like they ship to the US; no options come up for shipping methods (and clicking Continue anyway just loops back to the shipping method selection page without any sort of error message).
  - carlhjerpe 6y ago
    I mean, get used to filling in bogus information in a temporary Firefox container if you just want to check something. We're slowly progressing towards 1984!
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    > But yeah, doesn't look like they ship to the US; no options come up for shipping methods (and clicking Continue anyway just loops back to the shipping method selection page without any sort of error message). Business opportunity!
    - atat7024 6y ago
      Shipping forwarding services exist.
jdmg94 6y ago
I wonder if there would be a market for high quality dumb TVs. I would personally love to have the option but I suppose it would be hard to pitch a TV with less features that’s more expensive than the smart TVs from recognizable brands
peatmoss 6y ago
If I had infinite time, I’d build a firmware that was optimized for stupid use. Like OpenWRT.

50 points by tagawa 6y ago

We aren't at peak TV-as-spy-device yet. I was able to get a flagship 2020 model TV and all basic functions work without a internet connection. It actually can be connected for firmware updates but as long as the ToS isn't accepted all 'smart' features are disabled. If you want dumb-dumb, a good projector is a much better option. There's no need to sacrifice quality in pursuit of privacy... yet.

throwawayay02 6y ago
Except one day you'll connect it just for a firmware or security update, and get a bricked TV, or accepting the ToS will no longer matter. And rolling back will be impossible.
- rakoo 6y ago
  Another day after that you'll have learned your lesson and never connected it to your wifi, but the manufacturer included a SIM that connnects to the internet on its own. You want to remove it but the TV asks you to put it back and won't boot into a usable state until it is connected to the mothership. Also please open an account on Samsun MySmartTV and login to it otherwise it's black screen for you. Manufacturers are already looking into the first part and HP has implemented the second part with their newest print service (https://medium.com/@amandam_95165/what-you-dont-know-about-hp-instant-ink-until-it-s-too-late-fb730e752ab4 https://medium.com/@amandam_95165/what-you-dont-know-about-h...)
  - detaro 6y ago
    Not a good example: You can use a HP printer just fine without an account. You just need to buy ink cartridges for it, instead of using the optional subscription service.
gumby 6y ago
If you’re not using the so-called “smart” features do you even need a firmware update?

b15h0p 6y ago

Can anyone recommend a decent streaming client to make a dumb TV or a Beamer "smart"? I have an ancient PS3, but it's kinda noisy and I am afraid it will stop working for Netflix, considering Sony will soon shut down the PS3 Store. Also, there is no Disney+ on the PS3. * AppleTV is really long in the tooth right now * Amazon hardware is probably slow * Google knows too much about me, anyways * Raspberry PI/Kodi is probably fiddly (btw. I am in Germany, so not all hardware might be available here).

simonmales 6y ago
Using LibreELEC myself. It's designed to be less fiddly than RPi/Kodi. I'm also in Germany but not using Netflix so no idea how well it is supported. My favourite thing is my tiny little device: Cubox i4pro. Bought it five years ago and still humming along well. Though support is kind of suffering. But the list of hardware that LibreELEC supports well looks interesting.
jleahy 6y ago
Have a look at the OSMC Vero 4k.
- b15h0p 6y ago
  That seems to be geared towards the UK market (the AC adaptor has a british plug and it is not available on the german Amazon store). Am I overlooking something?
  - jleahy 6y ago
    Well I'm in the UK, so probably I'm missing something. I'm sure you could get a different plug.
paxys 6y ago
I have the latest Fire Stick 4K and it works great. Zero lag or sluggishness, and I got it for like $30.

m01 6y ago

For those looking for the model, the author posted it here: https://twitter.com/ericwbailey/status/1379980899090071554 https://twitter.com/ericwbailey/status/1379980899090071554

yellowapple 6y ago
For those looking for the model and can't access Twitter for some reason (like in my case; I had to pull up a device that wasn't on my work VPN ;) ): > It's a Sceptre 43" X435BV-FSRCC

pornel 6y ago

BTW, it's a Free Software issue. "Smartness" of the TV is not the problem. It's the fact that it forces on you software with anti-features, and you can't do anything about it.

swiley 6y ago
Sure but a free smart TV would just be a TV with a built-in PC and that's a bit silly. There's something attractive about the abusive software in devices like these.
- pornel 6y ago
  There's nothing silly about it. Chipsets these days are so cheap and common, that it'd be really hard to find one that can't be a "PC". Modern HDMI with HDR/Dolby/compression is already pretty complex and requires quite a bit of software/firmware. Even if most of the processing was done with DSPs, I assume it'd be hard to manage all of that without any CPU. And if you wanted anything nicer, like streaming media straight from a NAS, "casting" to the TV, or Bluetooth speakers, then it'd need a non-trivial OS anyway (and there's nothing wrong with such features when they're not used as an excuse for DRM and surveillance).
selfhoster11 6y ago
Tivoization and Free Software are orthogonal issues. Having full system sources means nothing when the TV most likely locks out any third party OSes.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > Tivoization and Free Software are orthogonal issues. Not really. Tivoization actively hinders software freedom, namely because... > Having full system sources means nothing when the TV most likely locks out any third party OSes. ...of this exact reason.
  - selfhoster11 6y ago

thecopy 6y ago

If you want a new stylish TV, i can recommend Samsung "The Frame". It is a 4K TV which you can hang on the wall and it looks like a painting. Note that you absolutely must not connect it to the internet nor accept any agreements or policies. It then becomes a "dumb" TV which displays art when turned off. Then connect Apple TV to make use of it.

sneak 6y ago
An Apple TV can't be used without an Apple ID, which requires a phone number to create, and transmits the unchangeable Apple TV hardware serial number to Apple like a supercookie you can never delete. It's just trading one type of tracking for another. At least your smart TV isn't demanding your phone number (which is a simple data broker API lookup to name, address, purchase history, income level, et c...).
- asdff 6y ago
  I don't think tracking is the concern here, it's advertisement that a lot of these smart TVs have been adding to their menu systems. Apple TV or smart TV, those services you hook into like Netflix are tracking your behavior anyway; that's a given. Your behavior is also tracked on Hackernews or any website you visit. Advertisement on the other hand, is a new thing with smart TVs that people try and avoid through the dumb TV.

callesgg 6y ago

Don’t connect it to the internet and your fine. Sure if you are Edward Snowden or some famous person I get it, people are out to get you. You are not going to change the world, just buy the cheep tv and use it as a dumb tv.

yellowapple 6y ago
> Don’t connect it to the internet and your fine. Assuming the TV won't connect anyway, e.g. by actively wardriving for unsecured wi-fi or by shipping with a cellular modem.
- asdff 6y ago
  You mean you haven't lead lined your home yet?
lolsal 6y ago
Please read the article. There are lots of points made about smart TVs that go beyond internet access.

bni 6y ago

I wish TVs could compete on Picture quality, how quickly it turns on and off, how sleek and minimalistic UI it has for picture settings. But sadly this is not the world we live in.

Tagbert 6y ago
Most of them seem to compete on picture quality but I’m not sure that we have a consensus on what “quality” means in this case. Buyers often prefer screens where the contrast and saturation are artificially enhanced so that is the default setting for many TVs.
- bni 6y ago
  There are ways to measure picture quality in unbiased way. I think this put it nicely: "However, it is important to emphasize that with calibration we use industry standards as goals. When a TV is told to reproduce a certain shade of purple, it must produce exactly this color. Nothing else. It is not up to the manufacturer to interpret or “improve”, which unfortunately is a common misconception about picture reproduction." From: https://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1229335089 https://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id...

carlhjerpe 6y ago

I've heard of a brand called swedx that makes dumb TVs, I don't know if they're expensive or how well they work since I've never bought a new TV in my life, but here's the website (kinda iffy) if someone is interested in checking them out, probably EU only. https://www.swedx.se/index.php?cPath=133_12800038 https://www.swedx.se/index.php?cPath=133_12800038

yellowapple 6y ago
It'd be nice if I could check shipping costs/ability before entering a bunch of personal info, but I guess that's life. But yeah, doesn't look like they ship to the US; no options come up for shipping methods (and clicking Continue anyway just loops back to the shipping method selection page without any sort of error message).
- carlhjerpe 6y ago
  I mean, get used to filling in bogus information in a temporary Firefox container if you just want to check something. We're slowly progressing towards 1984!
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  > But yeah, doesn't look like they ship to the US; no options come up for shipping methods (and clicking Continue anyway just loops back to the shipping method selection page without any sort of error message). Business opportunity!
  - atat7024 6y ago
    Shipping forwarding services exist.

jdmg94 6y ago

I wonder if there would be a market for high quality dumb TVs. I would personally love to have the option but I suppose it would be hard to pitch a TV with less features that’s more expensive than the smart TVs from recognizable brands

peatmoss 6y ago

If I had infinite time, I’d build a firmware that was optimized for stupid use. Like OpenWRT.