3 ms·

> Most Europeans would be horrified by this concept But they'd be really happy to earn the same level of income.

by rootusrootus 6y ago

yoz-y 6y ago
When speaking about SV tech salaries maybe. But for majority of people, most definitely not.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  Even in the midwest, tech people earn a lot more in the US than in almost any European country. Sure, for the lower income levels it might be a different story, but I live in the HN bubble like everyone else here.
gambiting 6y ago
That's a really shitty argument though. Would I be happy to earn $100k a year? Sure I would. Would I give up my 28 days of paid holidays per year, unlimited sick leave, year long maternity leave, free healthcare, free education for my children, and yes, 3 months of notice that gives me incredible amount of stability in my life for that higher pay? Absolutely not. At will employment is an abomination of the American employment system just like a lot of other things about that country. High salaries don't make up for it in the slightest.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  I make a lot more than 100K, I have unlimited vacation, unlimited sick leave. Only 12 weeks of FMLA, so there's that. And healthcare isn't free anywhere in the world, just financed differently. I pay for my insurance from my paycheck, but the paycheck is so much larger that it works out fine. My deductible is zero, out-of-pocket maximum is zero, so it's not effectively much different than 'free' healthcare. I am well aware of how much Europeans hate America. It's readily apparent on HN.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    >>I make a lot more than 100K That's all well and good, but most Americans don't and therefore they cannot afford the same social benefits that nearly all EU citizens just have as standard. Yes, I am aware that you can live an extremely good life in America if you're rich. Most people aren't rich though. >>My deductible is zero, out-of-pocket maximum is zero, so it's not effectively much different than 'free' healthcare. And what is your insurance like if you get fired tomorrow? >>unlimited sick leave. Unlimited paid sick leave? >>I am well aware of how much Europeans hate America. I don't hate America, I would love to come over and visit, you guys have beautiful national parks. There's just zero chance I would ever agree to come and live there.
    - rootusrootus 6y ago
      > Unlimited paid sick leave? Yep. And unlimited paid vacation, too.
      - dagw 6y ago
        So if you said "I'm taking Jan-March off to go skiing" you just get to go chill in the alps for 3 month with full pay? Where are you working? Are they hiring?
        omgwtfbbq 6y ago
        Unlimited vacation as a perk at US tech companies and startups in particular is a total illusion. I'm sure they never use 4 weeks a year that most Europeans are legally entitled to and if they tried would probably find that it is not nearly as "unlimited" as advertised.
        gambiting 6y ago
        I don't know why you're getting downvoted, it's exactly true. In EU if you have 28 days of paid leave, the company has to give you that time off, no exceptions. In US companies with "unlimited" vacation time it's not really unlimited because most places would really not like if you took 28 days off a year(and promptly exercise their right to at will employment) and a lot of companies would say ok, you can have unlimited leave but you have to be on call. In Germany it's literally illegal for employees to bother employees while they are on holiday.
smoe 6y ago
I don’t think that the people most affected by at-will employment necessarily earn more in the US Just one a bit dated example I could find quickly. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-01-09/which-countries-pay-blue-collar-workers-the-most https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-01-09/which-cou...
cosmodisk 6y ago
There are a few bubbles in the US,where people make way more than in Europe: SV, Some finance jobs on the Wall Street, maybe the oil industry. That's about it. Outside of those, it's more or less the same like in Europe, minus safety net and holiday. There are pros and cons on each side of the pond,no doubt, but in my opinion, the US is probably better suited for those with a very high income,while an average person is better off in Europe.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  My company employs people in Europe, and across the US. The highest paid Europeans still make less than any of our associates in the midwest. And we have unlimited vacation & sick time, so I'm not sure what advantage the 28 holiday thing is. I completely agree that the U.S. is better suited for high income earners.
  - Ekaros 6y ago
    Advantage of 28 days is that company can't stop or fire you from using them. And will be punished for not allowing it.
    - peytn 6y ago
      Geez, I’m glad I live in a society where that’s not seen as necessary. I don’t need to invoke the power of the state to take a vacation.
      - cosmodisk 6y ago
        You'd be surprised. For 99% of people such legislation is beneficial+ it came to be like that not without good reasons. Here,in the UK, I sometimes have to interact with our customers who can't get a few days off whenever they need and usually need to plan many months ahead, just because their employees can't organise work better. Imagine how much holiday these people would have,if such legislation is removed all together.
  - cosmodisk 6y ago

> Most Europeans would be horrified by this concept But they'd be really happy to earn the same level of income.

yoz-y 6y ago

When speaking about SV tech salaries maybe. But for majority of people, most definitely not.

rootusrootus 6y ago
Even in the midwest, tech people earn a lot more in the US than in almost any European country. Sure, for the lower income levels it might be a different story, but I live in the HN bubble like everyone else here.

gambiting 6y ago

That's a really shitty argument though. Would I be happy to earn $100k a year? Sure I would. Would I give up my 28 days of paid holidays per year, unlimited sick leave, year long maternity leave, free healthcare, free education for my children, and yes, 3 months of notice that gives me incredible amount of stability in my life for that higher pay? Absolutely not. At will employment is an abomination of the American employment system just like a lot of other things about that country. High salaries don't make up for it in the slightest.

rootusrootus 6y ago
I make a lot more than 100K, I have unlimited vacation, unlimited sick leave. Only 12 weeks of FMLA, so there's that. And healthcare isn't free anywhere in the world, just financed differently. I pay for my insurance from my paycheck, but the paycheck is so much larger that it works out fine. My deductible is zero, out-of-pocket maximum is zero, so it's not effectively much different than 'free' healthcare. I am well aware of how much Europeans hate America. It's readily apparent on HN.
- gambiting 6y ago
  >>I make a lot more than 100K That's all well and good, but most Americans don't and therefore they cannot afford the same social benefits that nearly all EU citizens just have as standard. Yes, I am aware that you can live an extremely good life in America if you're rich. Most people aren't rich though. >>My deductible is zero, out-of-pocket maximum is zero, so it's not effectively much different than 'free' healthcare. And what is your insurance like if you get fired tomorrow? >>unlimited sick leave. Unlimited paid sick leave? >>I am well aware of how much Europeans hate America. I don't hate America, I would love to come over and visit, you guys have beautiful national parks. There's just zero chance I would ever agree to come and live there.
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    > Unlimited paid sick leave? Yep. And unlimited paid vacation, too.
    - dagw 6y ago
      So if you said "I'm taking Jan-March off to go skiing" you just get to go chill in the alps for 3 month with full pay? Where are you working? Are they hiring?
      - omgwtfbbq 6y ago
        Unlimited vacation as a perk at US tech companies and startups in particular is a total illusion. I'm sure they never use 4 weeks a year that most Europeans are legally entitled to and if they tried would probably find that it is not nearly as "unlimited" as advertised.
        gambiting 6y ago
        I don't know why you're getting downvoted, it's exactly true. In EU if you have 28 days of paid leave, the company has to give you that time off, no exceptions. In US companies with "unlimited" vacation time it's not really unlimited because most places would really not like if you took 28 days off a year(and promptly exercise their right to at will employment) and a lot of companies would say ok, you can have unlimited leave but you have to be on call. In Germany it's literally illegal for employees to bother employees while they are on holiday.

smoe 6y ago

I don’t think that the people most affected by at-will employment necessarily earn more in the US Just one a bit dated example I could find quickly. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-01-09/which-countries-pay-blue-collar-workers-the-most https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-01-09/which-cou...

cosmodisk 6y ago

There are a few bubbles in the US,where people make way more than in Europe: SV, Some finance jobs on the Wall Street, maybe the oil industry. That's about it. Outside of those, it's more or less the same like in Europe, minus safety net and holiday. There are pros and cons on each side of the pond,no doubt, but in my opinion, the US is probably better suited for those with a very high income,while an average person is better off in Europe.

rootusrootus 6y ago
My company employs people in Europe, and across the US. The highest paid Europeans still make less than any of our associates in the midwest. And we have unlimited vacation & sick time, so I'm not sure what advantage the 28 holiday thing is. I completely agree that the U.S. is better suited for high income earners.
- Ekaros 6y ago
  Advantage of 28 days is that company can't stop or fire you from using them. And will be punished for not allowing it.
  - peytn 6y ago
    Geez, I’m glad I live in a society where that’s not seen as necessary. I don’t need to invoke the power of the state to take a vacation.
    - cosmodisk 6y ago
      You'd be surprised. For 99% of people such legislation is beneficial+ it came to be like that not without good reasons. Here,in the UK, I sometimes have to interact with our customers who can't get a few days off whenever they need and usually need to plan many months ahead, just because their employees can't organise work better. Imagine how much holiday these people would have,if such legislation is removed all together.
- cosmodisk 6y ago