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To add a little extra context to what other people are giving you: large, million-dollar digital tournaments stream on Twitch because they have no other choice

by CBLT 6y ago

To add a little extra context to what other people are giving you: large, million-dollar digital tournaments stream on Twitch because they have no other choice if they want to reach viewers. ESL signed a deal with Facebook streaming that destroyed their viewership numbers because people go to Twitch to watch, not the website for the tournament. Organizers have clearly seen this and will not move their stream to another provider unless a large amount of money changes hands (like Facebook sponsoring ESL). Additionally, Twitch will not allow banned users to appear on other streams including tournament streams. There was a kerfluffle recently where a Twitch-banned player was also banned from a tournament they tried to compete in, solely because the tournament organizer didn't want to jeopardize their streamability. I hope I've impressed upon you that a Twitch ban is effectively a ban on all opportunities that involve money in the esports scene. There are incredibly few esports careers that could survive a Twitch ban, and not a single one would be unaffected.

rm_-rf_slash 6y ago
In a way you have affirmed parent’s point: it’s the shareholders’ website, and they can mod it as they wish.
- weird-eye-issue 6y ago
  You just completely missed the point. Everyone knows who's website it is and that they "can" mod it as they wish. But at a certain scale some moral and ethical questions come into play.
  - onethought 6y ago
    Isn’t this just like other sports, where a star is pilloried for some indiscretion outside of their sport which can result in them being dropped from a team etc?
    - weird-eye-issue 6y ago
      That is up to the team though. This is closer to a TV station banning somebody so now they can't compete in a sport that will be broadcast on that station, forcing the team to kick them off.
      - madeofpalk 6y ago
        Shouldn’t a TV station be able to decide whether they want to promote a pedophile?
        weird-eye-issue 6y ago
        That is sort of the start of a strawman argument because Twitch bans for a lot of things, not just being a convicted pedophile. But even in that case I don't think it is fair to completely disallow somebody from appearing on a TV network. That also isn't what I would consider "promotion".
        madeofpalk 6y ago
        I don’t know if it’s a straw man when the actual policy this article is about mentions it > The company is currently defining “serious offenses” as incidents of violent extremism, credible threats of mass violence, membership in a known hate group, sexual exploitation of children, and nonconsensual sexual activities, among others.
        weird-eye-issue 6y ago
        That is for actions off of Twitch. You can get banned for actions on Twitch that are not bad at all or completely accidental
      - michaelmrose 6y ago
        Which effectively can also happen now. In fact the athlete is likely wealthy and will be ok despite his career crashing. This could in fact happen to the guy who waits on tables down town. If he became internet infamous and the tv station covers it the business he works at might be obliged to fire him.
  - rm_-rf_slash 6y ago
    I didn’t miss the point, I just have a different opinion.
rodgerd 6y ago
Well, then eSports stars are getting to be just like regular sports stars.
- CBLT 6y ago
  I'm okay with that. I think sports approaches this with the appropriate level of maturity. Has any sports exec said something to the effect of > I can also ban you if I don’t like you. Or if I think it’s funny, or really any other reason.
  - pc86 6y ago
    If they weren't dealing with dozens of 7- and 8-figure contracts, and earning millions themselves, but were instead moderating some piddly little forum nobody's ever heard for approximately $0 a year, they probably would have said almost exactly that.
_jal 6y ago
> a Twitch ban is effectively a ban on all opportunities that involve money in the esports scene. I suggest you ask Colin Kaepernick about how it is in the non-'E' sports world. (Edit: misspelled name)
- anamexis 6y ago
  I assume you mean Colin Kaepernick.
  - _jal 6y ago
    Thanks.
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  This is what I don't understand? People are complaining about something that has been happening since literally forever. Long before Gopher and Mosaic were even released. Why is it "bad" now? The answer is that it is not bad, it's just that it now affects them. Here's the thing though, waiting until it affects you, is a very poor strategy for changing what you consider to be a "wrong". This has all been litigated at this point. Now your only recourse is a wholesale change of the laws, which is not going to happen.
- exolymph 6y ago
  The dude who landed a big advertising campaign with Nike based on his high-profile activism?
  - bilbo0s 6y ago
    In other words, he changed his line of work from a "sports athlete" to a "marketing guy". The esports guys should take note at what happens to sports athletes who behave "badly". They typically don't get to participate in sports anymore.
ohazi 6y ago
> no other choice if they want to reach viewers > are incredibly few esports careers that could survive a Twitch ban (emphasis mine) People have never been entitled to a sports career, or to celebrity status by reaching viewers on someone else's platform. These platforms have democratized the "rags to riches" story, but whether it was the '30s or the '60s or the '90s, you've always had to play by the rules of the prevailing media empire. This is no different. Companies are generally allowed to set arbitrary criteria for who they're willing to work with. There are some very specific exceptions around discrimination against a very short list of protected classes. Other than that, rules restricting conduct are usually legal. Note that I'm not claiming that rules like these are moral, I'm just pointing out that they're usually found to be legal when challenged. The fact that you can sign up for an account in your bedroom in pajamas instead of signing documents at a lawyer's office in Hollywood doesn't magically make this a public square subject to a different set of rules.
- max1984_2 6y ago
  I can't stand comments like this that obviously miss the overall point being made and tbh it is entirely done disingenuously. The terms of service are not in anyway enforced consistently or fairly. The way the terms and service is written is that they can basically boot you for any reason. It is well known that the "tiddie streamers" regularly get away with ToS violations, where some dude wearing a red hat will get a ban (and I mean a red hat, because that exactly what happened to one guy, he didn't even have a MAGA hat). "Behaviour off platform" can mean anything and will be like the current Terms of Service be not be enforced in any manner that is consistent or fair. Twitch is a monopoly in this space and it is abusing its position. This combined with the fact that the mobile phone platforms can remove an App for any reason it wants means that there is no open market where a competitor that has a different ToS can reasonably become competitive.
- beaner 6y ago
  No, it just means your eligibility for a professional career may come down to whether or not a random mod on a streaming platform simply thinks it's "funny" to ban you.
jonwachob91 6y ago
Plenty of major streamers would tell you them switch to YouTube did more good for their careers than twitch. ValkyRae, CourageJD, DrDisrespect, Anish Giri are some just off the top of my head.

by CBLT 6y ago

rm_-rf_slash 6y ago

In a way you have affirmed parent’s point: it’s the shareholders’ website, and they can mod it as they wish.

weird-eye-issue 6y ago
You just completely missed the point. Everyone knows who's website it is and that they "can" mod it as they wish. But at a certain scale some moral and ethical questions come into play.
- onethought 6y ago
  Isn’t this just like other sports, where a star is pilloried for some indiscretion outside of their sport which can result in them being dropped from a team etc?
  - weird-eye-issue 6y ago
    That is up to the team though. This is closer to a TV station banning somebody so now they can't compete in a sport that will be broadcast on that station, forcing the team to kick them off.
    - madeofpalk 6y ago
      Shouldn’t a TV station be able to decide whether they want to promote a pedophile?
      - weird-eye-issue 6y ago
        That is sort of the start of a strawman argument because Twitch bans for a lot of things, not just being a convicted pedophile. But even in that case I don't think it is fair to completely disallow somebody from appearing on a TV network. That also isn't what I would consider "promotion".
        madeofpalk 6y ago
        I don’t know if it’s a straw man when the actual policy this article is about mentions it > The company is currently defining “serious offenses” as incidents of violent extremism, credible threats of mass violence, membership in a known hate group, sexual exploitation of children, and nonconsensual sexual activities, among others.
        weird-eye-issue 6y ago
        That is for actions off of Twitch. You can get banned for actions on Twitch that are not bad at all or completely accidental
    - michaelmrose 6y ago
      Which effectively can also happen now. In fact the athlete is likely wealthy and will be ok despite his career crashing. This could in fact happen to the guy who waits on tables down town. If he became internet infamous and the tv station covers it the business he works at might be obliged to fire him.
- rm_-rf_slash 6y ago
  I didn’t miss the point, I just have a different opinion.

rodgerd 6y ago

Well, then eSports stars are getting to be just like regular sports stars.

CBLT 6y ago
I'm okay with that. I think sports approaches this with the appropriate level of maturity. Has any sports exec said something to the effect of > I can also ban you if I don’t like you. Or if I think it’s funny, or really any other reason.
- pc86 6y ago
  If they weren't dealing with dozens of 7- and 8-figure contracts, and earning millions themselves, but were instead moderating some piddly little forum nobody's ever heard for approximately $0 a year, they probably would have said almost exactly that.

_jal 6y ago

> a Twitch ban is effectively a ban on all opportunities that involve money in the esports scene. I suggest you ask Colin Kaepernick about how it is in the non-'E' sports world. (Edit: misspelled name)

anamexis 6y ago
I assume you mean Colin Kaepernick.
- _jal 6y ago
  Thanks.
bilbo0s 6y ago
This is what I don't understand? People are complaining about something that has been happening since literally forever. Long before Gopher and Mosaic were even released. Why is it "bad" now? The answer is that it is not bad, it's just that it now affects them. Here's the thing though, waiting until it affects you, is a very poor strategy for changing what you consider to be a "wrong". This has all been litigated at this point. Now your only recourse is a wholesale change of the laws, which is not going to happen.
exolymph 6y ago
The dude who landed a big advertising campaign with Nike based on his high-profile activism?
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  In other words, he changed his line of work from a "sports athlete" to a "marketing guy". The esports guys should take note at what happens to sports athletes who behave "badly". They typically don't get to participate in sports anymore.

ohazi 6y ago

> no other choice if they want to reach viewers > are incredibly few esports careers that could survive a Twitch ban (emphasis mine) People have never been entitled to a sports career, or to celebrity status by reaching viewers on someone else's platform. These platforms have democratized the "rags to riches" story, but whether it was the '30s or the '60s or the '90s, you've always had to play by the rules of the prevailing media empire. This is no different. Companies are generally allowed to set arbitrary criteria for who they're willing to work with. There are some very specific exceptions around discrimination against a very short list of protected classes. Other than that, rules restricting conduct are usually legal. Note that I'm not claiming that rules like these are moral, I'm just pointing out that they're usually found to be legal when challenged. The fact that you can sign up for an account in your bedroom in pajamas instead of signing documents at a lawyer's office in Hollywood doesn't magically make this a public square subject to a different set of rules.

max1984_2 6y ago
I can't stand comments like this that obviously miss the overall point being made and tbh it is entirely done disingenuously. The terms of service are not in anyway enforced consistently or fairly. The way the terms and service is written is that they can basically boot you for any reason. It is well known that the "tiddie streamers" regularly get away with ToS violations, where some dude wearing a red hat will get a ban (and I mean a red hat, because that exactly what happened to one guy, he didn't even have a MAGA hat). "Behaviour off platform" can mean anything and will be like the current Terms of Service be not be enforced in any manner that is consistent or fair. Twitch is a monopoly in this space and it is abusing its position. This combined with the fact that the mobile phone platforms can remove an App for any reason it wants means that there is no open market where a competitor that has a different ToS can reasonably become competitive.
beaner 6y ago
No, it just means your eligibility for a professional career may come down to whether or not a random mod on a streaming platform simply thinks it's "funny" to ban you.

jonwachob91 6y ago

Plenty of major streamers would tell you them switch to YouTube did more good for their careers than twitch. ValkyRae, CourageJD, DrDisrespect, Anish Giri are some just off the top of my head.