5 ms·

The most surprising element of this article is that the writer was surprised at the outcome. It's 2021--who still doesn't think Google will act like any other l

by boh 6y ago

The most surprising element of this article is that the writer was surprised at the outcome. It's 2021--who still doesn't think Google will act like any other large corporate entity? I know the general aesthetic of the Google offices gives the impression of a fun, futuristic, elementary school, but the MBA's managing Human Resources went to the same schools as the ones in every other major corporation. The principals of self-preservation are still the same. No one you work with anywhere is "family". Everyone who has the position of employee, is an expendable expense attempting to secure their fickle, fleeting position. This may be a little dramatic, but do not depend on the initiative of mercenaries. Most people are scared of everything and will avoid whatever confrontation comes out of supporting you (even when you're in the right).

gweinberg 6y ago
"It's 2021--who still doesn't think Google will act like any other large corporate entity?" People who think it will act worse.
magneticnorth 6y ago
The article mentions that she started at Google in 2015; things may have been different then. This was also her first job out of school, and I'll admit I, too, fell for the hype at my first tech job, before learning all the obvious-in-retrospect things being discussed here.
arafalov 6y ago
- "joined the company after college in 2015" - "In high school, I spent time homeless and in foster care, and was often ostracized for being nerdy" - "What I found was a surrogate family" Many of us got burned earlier in our career, one way or another. But coming from a truly difficult background, would have meant it was even harder for her to see behind the veil of "good company".
jmwilson 6y ago
It's not surprising at all. Anyone who worked at Google or Facebook during the decade or so ca. 2005-2015 is aware of the degree to which these companies presented themselves as a totally new and different workplace than the typical corporate employer. Facebook even had a little red handbook that stated on its cover, "Facebook was not originally created to be a company." With on-site banking, laundry, car-washes, dentistry, hobby/interest clubs, etc. they provide a mixed, almost collegiate environment that blended the workplace with a community. Many people who worked at these places fell in love with their jobs, the companies made it easy to. To some degree, anyone who was super cynical about this would select themselves out of the hiring pool. The writer joined out of college, and perhaps was a previous intern. Again, anyone familiar with the internship program at big tech companies knows how they aim to provide not just a mentored professional experience, but a social one including events with other interns and employees.
- Yassire 6y ago
  In the 90s IBM began massive layoffs. They were sued in a number of successful class action suits. The plaintiffs claimed IBM had heavily advanced the We're a big family ethos, also had daycares on the campus, dry cleaners, gyms, and even had multi-generational families working there. IBM was found liable and had to make large payments to its former employees
  - chrisbolt 6y ago
    Liable for what?
    - visarga 6y ago
      having gyms, I presume
    - jdmichal 6y ago
      The only thing I've found so far is age discrimination and race discrimination lawsuits. Nothing having to do with the working environment or promises.
    - jgujgdrgvs 6y ago
      Violating pension agreements would be my guess
      - mcguire 6y ago
        https://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/30/technology/ibm-employees-get-320million-in-pension-suit.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/30/technology/ibm-employees-... "I.B.M. said yesterday that it had agreed to pay $320 million to current and former employees to settle in part a class-action lawsuit over its pension plan in a case that may affect millions of workers at many companies and nonprofit organizations. "Under the settlement, I.B.M.'s liability in the case will be limited to an additional $1.4 billion if the courts uphold a ruling that a new pension plan discriminates against its older workers and is illegal. ..." "For older workers with years in a traditional plan, the switch to a cash-balance plan at age 45 or older can halve the benefits they ultimately collect, compared with a traditional defined-benefit plan." There was also an additional lawsuit involving the difference between employees and contractors, but I can't find the details now. Also note that IBM went from 400,000 employees in 1985 to 225,000 in 1995, also losing on things like OS/2, PCs, mainframes. And as for as I know, IBM has not created any major, successful software projects since 1990 or so.
adamrezich 6y ago
it takes time and experience to overcome that naiveté, especially when you're young. I have a friend in a similar situation who is now coming to terms with the fact that jobs are jobs and don't have to be your whole life.
- ZephyrBlu 6y ago
  I disagree, I think it just takes exposure. Learn from other people's mistakes instead of getting screwed over yourself. I'm young and realize that no matter how many sweet nothings companies whisper in your ears, at the end of the day it's a business relationship.
  - adamrezich 6y ago
    yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it's impossible to learn these lessons when you're young without direct experience. I just meant that it's not uncommon (in my experience) for young people to be extremely, unflappably enthusiastic about joining on at a large corporation, naïvely buying into the company line of BS. I can easily see myself as having been this kind of person if I got a job at a company like Google when I was young and impressionable.
  - NotPavlovsDog 6y ago
    You don't buy the bull, but consider this: why is there proven age bias in tech hiring? Same reason the military likes 'em young: it's easier to mold and manipulate fresh adults.
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
I don't understand why acting like a large corporate entity is such a bad thing. It just is. Corporations are mortal entities and fear death. The first priority is to continue to simply exist. I don't see this as bad- just the natural order.
- hogFeast 6y ago
  Young people, I don't know if this is universal, associate bigness with badness and making money from trade with exploitation. The natural order is that some people need these companies to do something for them, that is why they exist. The utility of that system (creating things that people need) gets suffocated by our preoccupation with fairness. So people can only join these companies because they believe they are genuinely different...when no company is different because they all have the same function which largely depends on consumers, not staff.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
hogFeast 6y ago
It isn't because of the MBAs or because of the need to cut costs or whatever. It is to do with the employees too. If you start a company saying that you are very idealistic, you attract idealistic people (and btw, most companies say this because it is what young people want to hear). But the reality of being a human is that we have a habit of believing in our own honesty/goodness, whatever the actual content of our actions. Another good example was Obama (or perhaps Blair in the UK)...this kind of euphoric self-regard happens in other non-corporate contexts. Being human is thinking that "everything has changed now" , until you get old enough to realise nothing ever changes, and then the people who are saying "everything has changed now" again think you are too old and decrepit to listen to. It is eternal (this kind of fraud is a necessary component of capital markets). The stuff around Google is, however, particularly funny. The founders rhetoric is totally empty (Larry Page appears to be someone whose only distinguishing feature is supreme and total self-confidence). They have a rapacious monopoly which, by exploiting defects in corporate governance, they use to fund a bureaucracy of pet projects/niche interests of academics. You can dress it up any way you want (I can see why academics wanted to love Google, free money with no oversight) but it is still ultimately based on poor ethics (weak corporate governance, no oversight, stealing money from shareholders). Classic SV (wanting the luxury of making tons of easy money very fast AND the moral high ground).
perfect_wave 6y ago
I think that all it would take for these Googlers is one week as a TVC (temp/vendor/contractor) to get a view as to how Google really looks at things.
- nunez 6y ago
  Yes. I had friends who were TVCs and met a few while I was an FTE there. Google (and even some Googleras) treats their TVCs like dog shit. Cant even eat at the cafeterias.
ryanobjc 6y ago
Remember the X Files... "I want to believe". Her only "crime" was she was a greenhorn, and needed belonging and purpose. I feel truly sad for her, because while my cynical older self knows the ending what was in the cards, is it so WRONG to be hopeful, a little naive and earnest? Where were the people who were supposed to protect that? At least when you join the military and you become part of that family, everyone noncom at least believes in it. Even if the greater structure can toss you out, your brothers/sisters will attempt to come to your aid. No such luck in corporate america.

by boh 6y ago

gweinberg 6y ago

"It's 2021--who still doesn't think Google will act like any other large corporate entity?" People who think it will act worse.

magneticnorth 6y ago

The article mentions that she started at Google in 2015; things may have been different then. This was also her first job out of school, and I'll admit I, too, fell for the hype at my first tech job, before learning all the obvious-in-retrospect things being discussed here.

arafalov 6y ago

- "joined the company after college in 2015" - "In high school, I spent time homeless and in foster care, and was often ostracized for being nerdy" - "What I found was a surrogate family" Many of us got burned earlier in our career, one way or another. But coming from a truly difficult background, would have meant it was even harder for her to see behind the veil of "good company".

jmwilson 6y ago

It's not surprising at all. Anyone who worked at Google or Facebook during the decade or so ca. 2005-2015 is aware of the degree to which these companies presented themselves as a totally new and different workplace than the typical corporate employer. Facebook even had a little red handbook that stated on its cover, "Facebook was not originally created to be a company." With on-site banking, laundry, car-washes, dentistry, hobby/interest clubs, etc. they provide a mixed, almost collegiate environment that blended the workplace with a community. Many people who worked at these places fell in love with their jobs, the companies made it easy to. To some degree, anyone who was super cynical about this would select themselves out of the hiring pool. The writer joined out of college, and perhaps was a previous intern. Again, anyone familiar with the internship program at big tech companies knows how they aim to provide not just a mentored professional experience, but a social one including events with other interns and employees.

Yassire 6y ago
In the 90s IBM began massive layoffs. They were sued in a number of successful class action suits. The plaintiffs claimed IBM had heavily advanced the We're a big family ethos, also had daycares on the campus, dry cleaners, gyms, and even had multi-generational families working there. IBM was found liable and had to make large payments to its former employees
- chrisbolt 6y ago
  Liable for what?
  - visarga 6y ago
    having gyms, I presume
  - jdmichal 6y ago
    The only thing I've found so far is age discrimination and race discrimination lawsuits. Nothing having to do with the working environment or promises.
  - jgujgdrgvs 6y ago
    Violating pension agreements would be my guess
    - mcguire 6y ago
      https://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/30/technology/ibm-employees-get-320million-in-pension-suit.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/30/technology/ibm-employees-... "I.B.M. said yesterday that it had agreed to pay $320 million to current and former employees to settle in part a class-action lawsuit over its pension plan in a case that may affect millions of workers at many companies and nonprofit organizations. "Under the settlement, I.B.M.'s liability in the case will be limited to an additional $1.4 billion if the courts uphold a ruling that a new pension plan discriminates against its older workers and is illegal. ..." "For older workers with years in a traditional plan, the switch to a cash-balance plan at age 45 or older can halve the benefits they ultimately collect, compared with a traditional defined-benefit plan." There was also an additional lawsuit involving the difference between employees and contractors, but I can't find the details now. Also note that IBM went from 400,000 employees in 1985 to 225,000 in 1995, also losing on things like OS/2, PCs, mainframes. And as for as I know, IBM has not created any major, successful software projects since 1990 or so.

adamrezich 6y ago

it takes time and experience to overcome that naiveté, especially when you're young. I have a friend in a similar situation who is now coming to terms with the fact that jobs are jobs and don't have to be your whole life.

ZephyrBlu 6y ago
I disagree, I think it just takes exposure. Learn from other people's mistakes instead of getting screwed over yourself. I'm young and realize that no matter how many sweet nothings companies whisper in your ears, at the end of the day it's a business relationship.
- adamrezich 6y ago
  yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it's impossible to learn these lessons when you're young without direct experience. I just meant that it's not uncommon (in my experience) for young people to be extremely, unflappably enthusiastic about joining on at a large corporation, naïvely buying into the company line of BS. I can easily see myself as having been this kind of person if I got a job at a company like Google when I was young and impressionable.
- NotPavlovsDog 6y ago
  You don't buy the bull, but consider this: why is there proven age bias in tech hiring? Same reason the military likes 'em young: it's easier to mold and manipulate fresh adults.

2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago

I don't understand why acting like a large corporate entity is such a bad thing. It just is. Corporations are mortal entities and fear death. The first priority is to continue to simply exist. I don't see this as bad- just the natural order.

hogFeast 6y ago
Young people, I don't know if this is universal, associate bigness with badness and making money from trade with exploitation. The natural order is that some people need these companies to do something for them, that is why they exist. The utility of that system (creating things that people need) gets suffocated by our preoccupation with fairness. So people can only join these companies because they believe they are genuinely different...when no company is different because they all have the same function which largely depends on consumers, not staff.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

hogFeast 6y ago

It isn't because of the MBAs or because of the need to cut costs or whatever. It is to do with the employees too. If you start a company saying that you are very idealistic, you attract idealistic people (and btw, most companies say this because it is what young people want to hear). But the reality of being a human is that we have a habit of believing in our own honesty/goodness, whatever the actual content of our actions. Another good example was Obama (or perhaps Blair in the UK)...this kind of euphoric self-regard happens in other non-corporate contexts. Being human is thinking that "everything has changed now" , until you get old enough to realise nothing ever changes, and then the people who are saying "everything has changed now" again think you are too old and decrepit to listen to. It is eternal (this kind of fraud is a necessary component of capital markets). The stuff around Google is, however, particularly funny. The founders rhetoric is totally empty (Larry Page appears to be someone whose only distinguishing feature is supreme and total self-confidence). They have a rapacious monopoly which, by exploiting defects in corporate governance, they use to fund a bureaucracy of pet projects/niche interests of academics. You can dress it up any way you want (I can see why academics wanted to love Google, free money with no oversight) but it is still ultimately based on poor ethics (weak corporate governance, no oversight, stealing money from shareholders). Classic SV (wanting the luxury of making tons of easy money very fast AND the moral high ground).

perfect_wave 6y ago

I think that all it would take for these Googlers is one week as a TVC (temp/vendor/contractor) to get a view as to how Google really looks at things.

nunez 6y ago
Yes. I had friends who were TVCs and met a few while I was an FTE there. Google (and even some Googleras) treats their TVCs like dog shit. Cant even eat at the cafeterias.

ryanobjc 6y ago

Remember the X Files... "I want to believe". Her only "crime" was she was a greenhorn, and needed belonging and purpose. I feel truly sad for her, because while my cynical older self knows the ending what was in the cards, is it so WRONG to be hopeful, a little naive and earnest? Where were the people who were supposed to protect that? At least when you join the military and you become part of that family, everyone noncom at least believes in it. Even if the greater structure can toss you out, your brothers/sisters will attempt to come to your aid. No such luck in corporate america.