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Pretty much. Docker in my experience is the same way, people see docker as the new hotness then treat it like a Linux box with a shell script (though at least

Pretty much. Docker in my experience is the same way, people see docker as the new hotness then treat it like a Linux box with a shell script (though at least with the benefit you can shoot it in the head). One of the other teams had an issue with reproducibility on something they where doing so I suggested that they use a multistage build in docker and export the result out as an artefact they could deploy, they looked at me like I’d grown a second head yet have been using docker twice as long as me, though I’ve been using Linux for longer than all of them combined. It’s a strange way to solve problems all around when you think about what it’s actually doing. Also feels like people adopt tools and cobble shit together from google/SO, what happened to RTFM. If I’m going to use a technology I haven’t before the first thing I do is go read the actual documentation - I won’t understand it all on the first pass but it gives me an “index”/outline I can use when I do run into problems, if I’m looking at adopting a technology I google “the problem with foobar” not success stories, I want to know the warts not the gloss. It’s the same with books, I’d say two 3/4 of the devs I work with don’t buy programming books, like at all. It’s all cobbled together knowledge from blog posts, that’s fine but a cohesive book with a good editor is nearly always going to give your a better understanding than piecemeal bits from around the net, that’s not to say specific blog posts aren’t useful but the return on investment on a book is higher (for me, for the youngsters, they might do better learning from tiktok I don’t know..).

pbrb 6y ago
I personally love it. RTFM is pretty much the basis of my career. I always at minimum skim the documentation (the entire doc) so I have an index of where to look. It's a great jumping off point for if you do need to google anything. Books are the same. When learning a new language for example, I get a book that covers the language itself (best practices, common design patterns, etc), not how to write a for loop. It seems to be an incredibly effective way to learn. Most importantly, it cuts down on reading the same information regurgitated over and over across multiple blogs.
- cogman10 6y ago
  lol... yeah.... I've become "the expert" on so much shit just because of RTFM :D It's amazing how much stuff is spelt out in manuals that nobody bothers to read. The only issue is that so few people RTFM that some manuals are pure garbage to try and glean anything useful. In those cases, usually the best route is often to just read the implementation (though that is tedious).
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - cosmodisk 6y ago
    I have someone in my network, who is very active in PHP scene. Tutorials, tips&tricks, code reviews, you name it. He pretty much abandoned his very popular website and went all in on YouTube. Why? Apparently watching video is so much easier than reading 3000 word article.
    - tmh88j 6y ago
      >He pretty much abandoned his very popular website and went all in on YouTube. Why? Apparently watching video is so much easier than reading 3000 word article. Learning from videos is lazy? Content you've learned is only valid if you read it? I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at, but I'm a visual learner and I much prefer (well made) videos over text. There's a visual and audio aspect to it enabling so much more information to be conveyed at once. For example, Dr. Sedgwick's video series on algorithms and data structures has animations as he steps through how algorithms work. He's overlaying his audio while displaying code and animating the "data" as it's processed by the algorithm. I have a physical copy of his book Algorithms but I go back to his videos when I need a refresher. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wme8SDUaBx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wme8SDUaBx8
      - cosmodisk 6y ago
        There are pros and cons of each media, I'm not arguing against it. What I mean is that there's a general tendency of migration from longer versions( books) to more compact,bite size content(videos). It's one of the reasons why there's countless videos on YouTube on how to create a dictionary in Python,even though the documentation has it covered wide and deep.
dkarl 6y ago
> treat it like a Linux box with a shell script (though at least with the benefit you can shoot it in the head) To be fair, that by itself is a game-changer, even if doesn't take full advantage of Docker.
daniellarusso 6y ago
I am very similar. I read through the documentation the first time to get a ‘lay of the land’, so I can deep-dive into the various sections as I require.
na85 6y ago
>Also feels like people adopt tools and cobble shit together from google/SO, what happened to RTFM. Sometimes it's easier to google because TFM is written by people who are intricately familiar with the tool and forget what it's like to be unfamiliar with it. Look at git for example; the docs are atrocious. Here's the first line under DESCRIPTION for "man git-push": >Updates remote refs using local refs, while sending objects necessary to complete the given refs. Not a single bit of explanation as to what the fuck a "ref" is, much less the difference between remote and local refs. If you didn't have someone to explain it to you, this man page would be 100% useless.
- mariusor 6y ago
  I think that reading the man page for git-push is not reasonable if you don't understand git first. That being the case, the first thing you need to read is the main git man page. At the bottom of it (sadly) you find references to gitrevisions and gitglossary man pages. Those should provide enough information and examples to understand what a ref is, yet probably even these could be better. I'm in full agreement that this is terribly undiscoverable, but if you really want to RTFM, you mustn't stop at just the first page.
toomanyducks 6y ago
Any CI books you can recommend? I have been completely treating it as a linux box with a shell script and have cobbled together all of my shit from google/SO.
sergeykish 6y ago
I think there is a difference between taking technology, framing it into own mindset, getting parallels, and diving into presented story full of unicorns. Unfortunately seconds scenario is what often business wants, technology is mostly same, story is specific to the company.
sidpatil 6y ago
> Docker in my experience is the same way, people see docker as the new hotness then treat it like a Linux box with a shell script (though at least with the benefit you can shoot it in the head). "Adapting old programs to fit new machines usually means adapting new machines to behave like old ones." —Alan Perlis, Epigrams in Programming (1982)
bluefirebrand 6y ago
Every programming book I've ever bought has been way outdated to the point of feeling kind of useless. I mean yeah there's a lot of algorithms and other fundamental concepts you can learn from books, but specific tooling? I'm not sure.
HWR_14 6y ago
>Also feels like people adopt tools and cobble shit together from google/SO, what happened to RTFM. I find that documentation has gotten worse and harder to find. It used to be trivial to find and long to read. Now, between SO and SEO of pages designed to bring people in, it's 95% examples not enough "here's all the data about how x works". It's very easy to get a thing going, but very hard to understand all the things that can be done.

pbrb 6y ago

I personally love it. RTFM is pretty much the basis of my career. I always at minimum skim the documentation (the entire doc) so I have an index of where to look. It's a great jumping off point for if you do need to google anything. Books are the same. When learning a new language for example, I get a book that covers the language itself (best practices, common design patterns, etc), not how to write a for loop. It seems to be an incredibly effective way to learn. Most importantly, it cuts down on reading the same information regurgitated over and over across multiple blogs.

cogman10 6y ago
lol... yeah.... I've become "the expert" on so much shit just because of RTFM :D It's amazing how much stuff is spelt out in manuals that nobody bothers to read. The only issue is that so few people RTFM that some manuals are pure garbage to try and glean anything useful. In those cases, usually the best route is often to just read the implementation (though that is tedious).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- cosmodisk 6y ago
  I have someone in my network, who is very active in PHP scene. Tutorials, tips&tricks, code reviews, you name it. He pretty much abandoned his very popular website and went all in on YouTube. Why? Apparently watching video is so much easier than reading 3000 word article.
  - tmh88j 6y ago
    >He pretty much abandoned his very popular website and went all in on YouTube. Why? Apparently watching video is so much easier than reading 3000 word article. Learning from videos is lazy? Content you've learned is only valid if you read it? I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at, but I'm a visual learner and I much prefer (well made) videos over text. There's a visual and audio aspect to it enabling so much more information to be conveyed at once. For example, Dr. Sedgwick's video series on algorithms and data structures has animations as he steps through how algorithms work. He's overlaying his audio while displaying code and animating the "data" as it's processed by the algorithm. I have a physical copy of his book Algorithms but I go back to his videos when I need a refresher. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wme8SDUaBx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wme8SDUaBx8
    - cosmodisk 6y ago
      There are pros and cons of each media, I'm not arguing against it. What I mean is that there's a general tendency of migration from longer versions( books) to more compact,bite size content(videos). It's one of the reasons why there's countless videos on YouTube on how to create a dictionary in Python,even though the documentation has it covered wide and deep.

dkarl 6y ago

> treat it like a Linux box with a shell script (though at least with the benefit you can shoot it in the head) To be fair, that by itself is a game-changer, even if doesn't take full advantage of Docker.

daniellarusso 6y ago

I am very similar. I read through the documentation the first time to get a ‘lay of the land’, so I can deep-dive into the various sections as I require.

na85 6y ago

>Also feels like people adopt tools and cobble shit together from google/SO, what happened to RTFM. Sometimes it's easier to google because TFM is written by people who are intricately familiar with the tool and forget what it's like to be unfamiliar with it. Look at git for example; the docs are atrocious. Here's the first line under DESCRIPTION for "man git-push": >Updates remote refs using local refs, while sending objects necessary to complete the given refs. Not a single bit of explanation as to what the fuck a "ref" is, much less the difference between remote and local refs. If you didn't have someone to explain it to you, this man page would be 100% useless.

mariusor 6y ago
I think that reading the man page for git-push is not reasonable if you don't understand git first. That being the case, the first thing you need to read is the main git man page. At the bottom of it (sadly) you find references to gitrevisions and gitglossary man pages. Those should provide enough information and examples to understand what a ref is, yet probably even these could be better. I'm in full agreement that this is terribly undiscoverable, but if you really want to RTFM, you mustn't stop at just the first page.

toomanyducks 6y ago

Any CI books you can recommend? I have been completely treating it as a linux box with a shell script and have cobbled together all of my shit from google/SO.

sergeykish 6y ago

I think there is a difference between taking technology, framing it into own mindset, getting parallels, and diving into presented story full of unicorns. Unfortunately seconds scenario is what often business wants, technology is mostly same, story is specific to the company.

sidpatil 6y ago

> Docker in my experience is the same way, people see docker as the new hotness then treat it like a Linux box with a shell script (though at least with the benefit you can shoot it in the head). "Adapting old programs to fit new machines usually means adapting new machines to behave like old ones." —Alan Perlis, Epigrams in Programming (1982)

bluefirebrand 6y ago

Every programming book I've ever bought has been way outdated to the point of feeling kind of useless. I mean yeah there's a lot of algorithms and other fundamental concepts you can learn from books, but specific tooling? I'm not sure.

HWR_14 6y ago

>Also feels like people adopt tools and cobble shit together from google/SO, what happened to RTFM. I find that documentation has gotten worse and harder to find. It used to be trivial to find and long to read. Now, between SO and SEO of pages designed to bring people in, it's 95% examples not enough "here's all the data about how x works". It's very easy to get a thing going, but very hard to understand all the things that can be done.