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Is there any evidence fish don't "know" they are in water? I've seen plenty of fish from flying fish, to carp, to sharks jump completely out of water time afte

by jerrya 15y ago

Is there any evidence fish don't "know" they are in water? I've seen plenty of fish from flying fish, to carp, to sharks jump completely out of water time after time after time. The archer fish can accurately shoot (spit at) flies that are out of water and down them (and eat them) so something within the fish can correct for refraction. Salmon can be seen jumping out of water, and against a strong current, they can be seen swimming very hard, and making little headway or even giving up ground. It's not clear to me that fish don't understand they are within water. citation-needed.jpg

andrewflnr 15y ago
Assuming they can "know" anything in a sense recognizable to human consciousness, I would imagine they can instinctively understand the properties of they medium they live in without being "aware" of it, or thinking about it much. How often do you think about air? But I'm just speculating, as well. It makes a good illustration for the real point, in any case. ;)
- forkandwait 15y ago
  "Knowledge how" versus "Knowledge about." When one is driving a car, one doesn't say to oneself "Wow, I am driving a car." That doesn't mean one can't have that knowledge, it just doesn't come up -- unless something breaks, and one can't drive the car and is trying to figure out why and communicate it. Knowledge-how is implicit in all of the universe. Knowledge-about might be only possible with language. All speculation...
CoachRufus87 15y ago
please tell me you're joking.
- jerrya 15y ago
  Article starts with assumption of premise P. I believe premise P is likely false. F => X is T for all X, so I am not sure what the point of reading the rest of the article is. I ask for some evidence that P is true. You tell me of your need that I tell you I am joking. I do not understand your need.
  - snowmaker 15y ago
    He's saying that you're taking the article's metaphor too literally. The author is using the fish line as imagery to help illustrate his point; it is not actually a "premise" like you suggest, and so its scientific truth is just not relevant.
    - jerrya 15y ago
      Look, science fiction requires a willing suspension of disbelief. I get that. I get too that the article starts with a metaphor. The metaphor seems bogus to me. And the post was apparently not science fiction. So I said, the metaphor seems bogus to me. Your response seems to be, "it's imagery." Okay, my position is that this premise/metaphor/imagery is probably bogus and as such, hurts the article. I can't suspend my disbelief long enough to get to the rest of the article. F=>X is T for all X. Cast article form of tautology. I appreciate your response to me, as opposed to the downvotes my response received with no explanation.
      - philwelch 15y ago
        It's an analogy, not a logical conditional. It's English, not Lojban.
        jerrya 15y ago
        Yes, thank you. I can see by the points I lose just how much everyone wants to tell me it's an analogy/metaphor/imagery not actual logic. I read stuff all day long where people say, "your analogy is wrong". That actually is part of an argument. I assume Derek would like to be a better writer -- we all would. I assume Derek would like his articles to carry weight -- we all would. His analogy/metaphor/imagery is probably bogus and stopped me in my tracks. I understand how stating my position that I could not get further than that brings down the hammer at HN. Ironically, my stating my own opinion that I cannot buy into his analogy/metaphor/imagery and that his metaphor is wrong AND the consequent hammer of downvotes as HN readers hate on me actually makes Derek's point. I think I get this, thank you. "And yet, it moves"
BrandonM 15y ago
Whoosh Someone is stuck in Reddit water. This reply may seem clever and proper from the point of view of someone living in a Reddit culture, but it is rude and pointless in a Hacker News culture. We do not place high stock in pointless pedantry or mundane memes. We focus on intelligent, meaningful discussion that centers around important points in submissions. Picking a tangential (and historical) analogy to attack does not further the discussion in any way. This entire thread is a massive waste of space.
- ColinWright 15y ago
  Largely, I'm not going to disagree with you. I agree that we should look for truths and value in whatever is posted, and foster useful and constructive discussion. However, you appear to have done that of which you accuse. There is merit in the comment you criticize, even though it is not fully or clearly expressed. Try to draw an intelligent and meaningful discussion from it ... The point, perhaps, is that a bad analogy at the start of a piece is an example of bad writing. Good hackers need to write well, and the lesson to learn here is that good writing requires moving beyond the mundane cliche and finding analogies that are relevant, accurate, and true. Yes, this thread got out of hand, and I probably should take much of the blame for that. The down-votes are telling me that people think it doesn't belong. I'll take my lumps. But to dismiss a comment like this as being content-free is to share the blame for not finding value. The real mistake is the Reddit-like expression of the point, rather than attempting to highlight something positive. With that I agree.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  Am I the only person that thought jerrya's original comment was quite well thought out and reasonable, and was only later put off the discussion by other people attacking him? If criticisms such as jerrya's are the plague of Reddit, then surely "this is a bad HN comment" is the plague of HN. And yes, I realize I risk being self-referential here, but I really think this needs proper calling out.
  - BrandonM 15y ago
    I thought jerrya's original comment was reasonable until I got to, "citation-needed.jpg." I was actually "lucky" that he included that bit, making me question the relevance of his entire post. It is not unintelligent or spammy comments that endanger the discourse at Hacker News. It is comments that seem to be saying something worthwhile that get upvoted and take up valuable real estate on the comment threads while being of almost no value that threaten to bring Hacker News too close to the multitude of other sites out there. It used to be that the HN comment threads were multiple times better than the submissions themselves. I would have a very hard time arguing that today.
ignifero 15y ago
Talk about looking at the finger.
grannyg00se 15y ago
I agree with this. I know I am in air. And I know my culture is different from other cultures. I may not completely grasp the significance but I don't need to because I'm not switching cultures any time soon. If I were to decide to emigrate to Singapore, then I'd go ahead and learn about their culture. What value is it to me to know that people in Singapore don't see entrepeneurism the same way that I do? Maybe of my local peers don't see it the same way I do either. We are all different. Regardless of culture. I think that the fish-water analogy is pretty weak, and the entire culture ignorance concept is irrelevant for most individuals.

by jerrya 15y ago

andrewflnr 15y ago

Assuming they can "know" anything in a sense recognizable to human consciousness, I would imagine they can instinctively understand the properties of they medium they live in without being "aware" of it, or thinking about it much. How often do you think about air? But I'm just speculating, as well. It makes a good illustration for the real point, in any case. ;)

forkandwait 15y ago
"Knowledge how" versus "Knowledge about." When one is driving a car, one doesn't say to oneself "Wow, I am driving a car." That doesn't mean one can't have that knowledge, it just doesn't come up -- unless something breaks, and one can't drive the car and is trying to figure out why and communicate it. Knowledge-how is implicit in all of the universe. Knowledge-about might be only possible with language. All speculation...

CoachRufus87 15y ago

please tell me you're joking.

jerrya 15y ago
Article starts with assumption of premise P. I believe premise P is likely false. F => X is T for all X, so I am not sure what the point of reading the rest of the article is. I ask for some evidence that P is true. You tell me of your need that I tell you I am joking. I do not understand your need.
- snowmaker 15y ago
  He's saying that you're taking the article's metaphor too literally. The author is using the fish line as imagery to help illustrate his point; it is not actually a "premise" like you suggest, and so its scientific truth is just not relevant.
  - jerrya 15y ago
    Look, science fiction requires a willing suspension of disbelief. I get that. I get too that the article starts with a metaphor. The metaphor seems bogus to me. And the post was apparently not science fiction. So I said, the metaphor seems bogus to me. Your response seems to be, "it's imagery." Okay, my position is that this premise/metaphor/imagery is probably bogus and as such, hurts the article. I can't suspend my disbelief long enough to get to the rest of the article. F=>X is T for all X. Cast article form of tautology. I appreciate your response to me, as opposed to the downvotes my response received with no explanation.
    - philwelch 15y ago
      It's an analogy, not a logical conditional. It's English, not Lojban.
      - jerrya 15y ago
        Yes, thank you. I can see by the points I lose just how much everyone wants to tell me it's an analogy/metaphor/imagery not actual logic. I read stuff all day long where people say, "your analogy is wrong". That actually is part of an argument. I assume Derek would like to be a better writer -- we all would. I assume Derek would like his articles to carry weight -- we all would. His analogy/metaphor/imagery is probably bogus and stopped me in my tracks. I understand how stating my position that I could not get further than that brings down the hammer at HN. Ironically, my stating my own opinion that I cannot buy into his analogy/metaphor/imagery and that his metaphor is wrong AND the consequent hammer of downvotes as HN readers hate on me actually makes Derek's point. I think I get this, thank you. "And yet, it moves"

BrandonM 15y ago

Whoosh Someone is stuck in Reddit water. This reply may seem clever and proper from the point of view of someone living in a Reddit culture, but it is rude and pointless in a Hacker News culture. We do not place high stock in pointless pedantry or mundane memes. We focus on intelligent, meaningful discussion that centers around important points in submissions. Picking a tangential (and historical) analogy to attack does not further the discussion in any way. This entire thread is a massive waste of space.

ColinWright 15y ago
Largely, I'm not going to disagree with you. I agree that we should look for truths and value in whatever is posted, and foster useful and constructive discussion. However, you appear to have done that of which you accuse. There is merit in the comment you criticize, even though it is not fully or clearly expressed. Try to draw an intelligent and meaningful discussion from it ... The point, perhaps, is that a bad analogy at the start of a piece is an example of bad writing. Good hackers need to write well, and the lesson to learn here is that good writing requires moving beyond the mundane cliche and finding analogies that are relevant, accurate, and true. Yes, this thread got out of hand, and I probably should take much of the blame for that. The down-votes are telling me that people think it doesn't belong. I'll take my lumps. But to dismiss a comment like this as being content-free is to share the blame for not finding value. The real mistake is the Reddit-like expression of the point, rather than attempting to highlight something positive. With that I agree.
burgerbrain 15y ago
Am I the only person that thought jerrya's original comment was quite well thought out and reasonable, and was only later put off the discussion by other people attacking him? If criticisms such as jerrya's are the plague of Reddit, then surely "this is a bad HN comment" is the plague of HN. And yes, I realize I risk being self-referential here, but I really think this needs proper calling out.
- BrandonM 15y ago
  I thought jerrya's original comment was reasonable until I got to, "citation-needed.jpg." I was actually "lucky" that he included that bit, making me question the relevance of his entire post. It is not unintelligent or spammy comments that endanger the discourse at Hacker News. It is comments that seem to be saying something worthwhile that get upvoted and take up valuable real estate on the comment threads while being of almost no value that threaten to bring Hacker News too close to the multitude of other sites out there. It used to be that the HN comment threads were multiple times better than the submissions themselves. I would have a very hard time arguing that today.

ignifero 15y ago

Talk about looking at the finger.

grannyg00se 15y ago

I agree with this. I know I am in air. And I know my culture is different from other cultures. I may not completely grasp the significance but I don't need to because I'm not switching cultures any time soon. If I were to decide to emigrate to Singapore, then I'd go ahead and learn about their culture. What value is it to me to know that people in Singapore don't see entrepeneurism the same way that I do? Maybe of my local peers don't see it the same way I do either. We are all different. Regardless of culture. I think that the fish-water analogy is pretty weak, and the entire culture ignorance concept is irrelevant for most individuals.