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I agree that twitch is within their rights. I also think we're within our rights to pressure them to adopt standards we would like. The law has long recognized

I agree that twitch is within their rights. I also think we're within our rights to pressure them to adopt standards we would like. The law has long recognized different rights for "public figures" and private citizens, and I think that most Twitch users are better understood as private citizens. Even if I felt the behavior policing history of media was perfect (I do not), I think this is different in important ways.

FuckButtons 6y ago
I think that’s exactly what is happening though, they’re adopting the standards that their advertisers, and by extension their users want.
- pope_meat 6y ago
  ...I don't know, I'm a user, and uh, I hate the advertisers, and their dumb standards, they're killing creativity, only allowing brand safe content to exist, and be consumed. I think that's an overall net negative for the users. The need to make everything conform to advertisers is destroying the online spaces we congregate on, making them shallow, and vapid feeling.
Pfhreak 6y ago
> I also think we're within our rights to pressure them to adopt standards we would like. I think this is what's happening, it's just that the users of Twitch want something different than what you want. You might think they're the vocal minority or something, but Twitch is almost certainly making a data driven decision here.
- aeturnum 6y ago
  I am sure there are many different groups here! But yah, there are definitely folks that will be happy. I was just trying to say that, beyond Twitch being within its rights, people can still yell at them and say they shouldn't (or should) do it. No need to leave it at "this is legal and in line with previous behavior."
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    Sure. I find it extremely tiring to read about how this is a slippery slope, and how this is somehow oppressive or unusual for American media. I don't mind folks coming in and saying, "Hey, this is a change that I dislike." But a lot of the discourse here today is just outrage and finger pointing and yelling about free speech absolutism. I think that HN's downvoting system actually makes it harder to have a reasoned discourse about topics like this, because if I disagree with the prevailing opinion in this community that Twitch is doing a bad thing, it's likely my comment gets strongly downvoted, rather than opening a line of discussion. I don't know how to solve this. Maybe separate "I disagree" vs "Off-topic/poor quality comment" downvotes? There's a reasonable discussion to be had about the decision Twitch made. I happen to think it's a good decision, and I'd love to be able to have that discourse in a calm way, but I don't know how to have it in something like HN where comments get swept up in voting and yelling and hostile replies.
    - aeturnum 6y ago
      I very much agree that unmarked voting systems like HN's do a really poor job of keeping comments "high quality." Everyone has a different definition of quality. I understand that there are UX challenges to adding different kinds of votes, but I totally agree that the UI affordances we have right now make conversation harder instead of easier. I wonder if separating "quality" (vote + or -) from "reports" ("excessively rude", "inappropriate", "off-topic") would be useful. I do think that people can be excessively rude and useful at the same time. Edit: So, this would change from "-3 points" -> "-3 points [rude: 3, off-topic: 5]".

FuckButtons 6y ago

I think that’s exactly what is happening though, they’re adopting the standards that their advertisers, and by extension their users want.

pope_meat 6y ago
...I don't know, I'm a user, and uh, I hate the advertisers, and their dumb standards, they're killing creativity, only allowing brand safe content to exist, and be consumed. I think that's an overall net negative for the users. The need to make everything conform to advertisers is destroying the online spaces we congregate on, making them shallow, and vapid feeling.

Pfhreak 6y ago

> I also think we're within our rights to pressure them to adopt standards we would like. I think this is what's happening, it's just that the users of Twitch want something different than what you want. You might think they're the vocal minority or something, but Twitch is almost certainly making a data driven decision here.

aeturnum 6y ago
I am sure there are many different groups here! But yah, there are definitely folks that will be happy. I was just trying to say that, beyond Twitch being within its rights, people can still yell at them and say they shouldn't (or should) do it. No need to leave it at "this is legal and in line with previous behavior."
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Sure. I find it extremely tiring to read about how this is a slippery slope, and how this is somehow oppressive or unusual for American media. I don't mind folks coming in and saying, "Hey, this is a change that I dislike." But a lot of the discourse here today is just outrage and finger pointing and yelling about free speech absolutism. I think that HN's downvoting system actually makes it harder to have a reasoned discourse about topics like this, because if I disagree with the prevailing opinion in this community that Twitch is doing a bad thing, it's likely my comment gets strongly downvoted, rather than opening a line of discussion. I don't know how to solve this. Maybe separate "I disagree" vs "Off-topic/poor quality comment" downvotes? There's a reasonable discussion to be had about the decision Twitch made. I happen to think it's a good decision, and I'd love to be able to have that discourse in a calm way, but I don't know how to have it in something like HN where comments get swept up in voting and yelling and hostile replies.
  - aeturnum 6y ago
    I very much agree that unmarked voting systems like HN's do a really poor job of keeping comments "high quality." Everyone has a different definition of quality. I understand that there are UX challenges to adding different kinds of votes, but I totally agree that the UI affordances we have right now make conversation harder instead of easier. I wonder if separating "quality" (vote + or -) from "reports" ("excessively rude", "inappropriate", "off-topic") would be useful. I do think that people can be excessively rude and useful at the same time. Edit: So, this would change from "-3 points" -> "-3 points [rude: 3, off-topic: 5]".