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My employer can fire me for severe misconduct that occurs away from the office. Is that any different? Isn't this normal at most companies?

elric 6y ago
Depends on where in the world you live. Also depends on the kind of misconduct. In general I'm of a mind that it isn't any of my employer's business what I get up to when I'm off the clock. If they can define "misconduct" in a sensible way they're probably free to add it to my employment contract, in which case I can decide for myself whether or not to work for them. Anything less is arbitrary nonsense and will likely result in legal action.
- kstrauser 6y ago
  There's such a huge grey area, though. On one extreme: I work at a desk job and it'd be insane for my employer to fire me for getting a speeding ticket doing 70 in a 65 zone. On the other: if I were shown in a CNN video carrying a swastika flag in a parade, I absolutely 100% expect I'd be jobless by the time I got home. I wouldn't pause for a moment at an employment contract that says the latter violates their rules.
  - kevinpet 6y ago
    Not in California. Political activity off the clock is legally protected. Because it isn't ever actually carrying a swastika flag. It's supporting the opposite side of a current contentious issue like abortion.
    - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
      Making a hostile environment at work probably isn't protected, though, and that's what carrying a swastika flag on national television will make. As soon as I know a coworker is running about carrying a swastika flag, I can never feel safe around that coworker again.
      - rightbyte 6y ago
        Prince Harry, John Cleese etc beg to differ. Or are we working with hypotetical actual nazis? 5g covid thruthers?
        Broken_Hippo 6y ago
        Almost every rule has an exception or two. In general, however, most of us aren't working with folks seriously into theater and such things. Even when folks are, I'm still suspicious until they prove otherwise.
      - nitrogen 6y ago
        But what someone does outside of work and not involving coworkers is, by definition, not a part of the workplace environment. Treating everything about a person as within scope for personal concern is one of the things that really strongly turns people against each other. It shouldn't matter what someone believes or does on their own time, whether it's a right-leaning company with a gay employee, or a left-leaning company with a right-leaning employee.
        kstrauser 6y ago
        That's not reasonable, and I don't think anyone truly believes that. For instance, if a black guy's boss talks about attending a Ku Klux Klan meeting, you can't honestly argue that said boss leaves that all at home when they meet at work in the morning. Wherever you are on the political spectrum, I'm sure you can imagine someone engaging in some form out outside-work activities that would make you feel personally unsafe at work. If that person got fired, not for their beliefs but for their actions, then, well, that's the consequence of making a hostile workplace.
        Broken_Hippo 6y ago
        This is exactly it - Thank you.
        nitrogen 6y ago
    - kstrauser 6y ago
      That's absolutely not what I've seen in the news. No one's "canceling" run-of-the-mill conservatives for run-of-the-mill conservative views, but there've been literal swastika flags in alt-right parades. I have and will cheerfully work alongside people with whom I have significant political disagreements. I absolutely would not share an office with, say, an actual white supremacist. That's a hostile work environment and I want nothing to do with it. Edit: There's a wide gulf between "political activity" and the stuff I'm talking about. You're a Republican? Fine, I'll discuss this with you over lunch and we can have fun teasing each other about our various beliefs. Get arrested storming the capitol? Yeah, that's a jobstopper.
dkersten 6y ago
What about your ISP or electrical company or other service provider? Can they shut you off because you did or said something they don't like? What about your payment provider or your bank? Twitch are providing a service to streamers, they are not employing them.
- yakubin 6y ago
  Streamers don't pay Twitch for the service. Twitch pays streamers in return for the ad revenue/subscriptions that they generate. They make Twitch money and get a tiny part of it in return. It sounds a lot more like being employed than being a customer. It's the subscribers who fit the picture of service customers.
alacombe 6y ago
> My employer can fire me for severe misconduct that occurs away from the office. I'm certain it would be considered wrongful dismissal in many jurisdiction.
himinlomax 6y ago
Can your employee fire you for your religious beliefs? Twitch will most certainly fire you if you believe certain things about marriage, for instance. Things I don't happen believe, I have to add.

elric 6y ago

Depends on where in the world you live. Also depends on the kind of misconduct. In general I'm of a mind that it isn't any of my employer's business what I get up to when I'm off the clock. If they can define "misconduct" in a sensible way they're probably free to add it to my employment contract, in which case I can decide for myself whether or not to work for them. Anything less is arbitrary nonsense and will likely result in legal action.

kstrauser 6y ago
There's such a huge grey area, though. On one extreme: I work at a desk job and it'd be insane for my employer to fire me for getting a speeding ticket doing 70 in a 65 zone. On the other: if I were shown in a CNN video carrying a swastika flag in a parade, I absolutely 100% expect I'd be jobless by the time I got home. I wouldn't pause for a moment at an employment contract that says the latter violates their rules.
- kevinpet 6y ago
  Not in California. Political activity off the clock is legally protected. Because it isn't ever actually carrying a swastika flag. It's supporting the opposite side of a current contentious issue like abortion.
  - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
    Making a hostile environment at work probably isn't protected, though, and that's what carrying a swastika flag on national television will make. As soon as I know a coworker is running about carrying a swastika flag, I can never feel safe around that coworker again.
    - rightbyte 6y ago
      Prince Harry, John Cleese etc beg to differ. Or are we working with hypotetical actual nazis? 5g covid thruthers?
      - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
        Almost every rule has an exception or two. In general, however, most of us aren't working with folks seriously into theater and such things. Even when folks are, I'm still suspicious until they prove otherwise.
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      But what someone does outside of work and not involving coworkers is, by definition, not a part of the workplace environment. Treating everything about a person as within scope for personal concern is one of the things that really strongly turns people against each other. It shouldn't matter what someone believes or does on their own time, whether it's a right-leaning company with a gay employee, or a left-leaning company with a right-leaning employee.
      - kstrauser 6y ago
        That's not reasonable, and I don't think anyone truly believes that. For instance, if a black guy's boss talks about attending a Ku Klux Klan meeting, you can't honestly argue that said boss leaves that all at home when they meet at work in the morning. Wherever you are on the political spectrum, I'm sure you can imagine someone engaging in some form out outside-work activities that would make you feel personally unsafe at work. If that person got fired, not for their beliefs but for their actions, then, well, that's the consequence of making a hostile workplace.
        Broken_Hippo 6y ago
        This is exactly it - Thank you.
        nitrogen 6y ago
  - kstrauser 6y ago
    That's absolutely not what I've seen in the news. No one's "canceling" run-of-the-mill conservatives for run-of-the-mill conservative views, but there've been literal swastika flags in alt-right parades. I have and will cheerfully work alongside people with whom I have significant political disagreements. I absolutely would not share an office with, say, an actual white supremacist. That's a hostile work environment and I want nothing to do with it. Edit: There's a wide gulf between "political activity" and the stuff I'm talking about. You're a Republican? Fine, I'll discuss this with you over lunch and we can have fun teasing each other about our various beliefs. Get arrested storming the capitol? Yeah, that's a jobstopper.

dkersten 6y ago

What about your ISP or electrical company or other service provider? Can they shut you off because you did or said something they don't like? What about your payment provider or your bank? Twitch are providing a service to streamers, they are not employing them.

yakubin 6y ago
Streamers don't pay Twitch for the service. Twitch pays streamers in return for the ad revenue/subscriptions that they generate. They make Twitch money and get a tiny part of it in return. It sounds a lot more like being employed than being a customer. It's the subscribers who fit the picture of service customers.

alacombe 6y ago

> My employer can fire me for severe misconduct that occurs away from the office. I'm certain it would be considered wrongful dismissal in many jurisdiction.

himinlomax 6y ago

Can your employee fire you for your religious beliefs? Twitch will most certainly fire you if you believe certain things about marriage, for instance. Things I don't happen believe, I have to add.