9 ms·
Fish don't know they're in water
- brianwillis 15y agoThis post borrows heavily from the famous "This is Water" speech that David Foster Wallace gave at Kenyon College. It's well worth a read. Full text of the speech available here: http://moreintelligentlife.com/story/david-foster-wallace-in-his-own-words http://moreintelligentlife.com/story/david-foster-wallace-in...
- thisrod 15y agoI suspect all these derive from a Buddhist parable, in which a novice fish asks a master fish to define the "sea" that the master keeps mentioning. The original point was different: the master's description is necessarily mystical, but the sea is real.
- blinkingled 15y agoIt does have Buddhist roots. If fact the Youtube videos of DFW's - This is water - are very close to what Buddhism advocates (for lack of a better word) - consciously chosen response to every moment/situation. (DFW mentions "Default Setting" of unconscious conditioned response which I find highly relevant for geeks!)
- zephjc 15y agoYou can find hours of lectures by Alan Watts about this sort of thing. I find his work to be a very approachable explanation of Buddhism, Zen, Hinduism and Taoism.
- sivers 15y agoWild! I don't remember ever having read that, but I must have years ago, and the metaphor stuck. Thanks for letting me know. I updated the post to give credit.
- netcan 15y agoIf you ever want to extend the analogy to include the perspective of the water here's one to read: "Over the last few years I've regularly been cornered by nervous publishers or broadcasters or journalists or film makers and asked about how I think computers will affect their various industries. For a long time most of them were desperately hoping for an answer that translated roughly into 'not very much'. ('People like the smell of books, they like popcorn, they like to see programmes at exactly the same moment as their neighbours, they like at least to have lots of articles that they've no interest in reading', etc.) But it's a hard question to answer because it's based on a faulty model. It's like trying to explain to the Amazon River, the Mississippi, the Congo and the Nile how the coming of the Atlantic Ocean will affect them. The first thing to understand is that river rules will no longer apply." Since you're currently holding a magazine, let's think about what might happen when magazine publishing is no longer a river in its own right.. Douglas Adams - The one person we really needed to explain all this stuff to us http://www.douglasadams.com/dna/980707-05-a.html http://www.douglasadams.com/dna/980707-05-a.html
- jswinghammer 15y agoIf you ever read CS Lewis's classic book "Mere Christianity" he uses a similar metaphor there too.
- runjake 15y agoI've had that happen before. I wrote a somewhat long piano piece that I was unusually impressed with myself for. I later learned (luckily before I published it anywhere) that it was in fact a melody from a (somewhat well-known) friend's song I had heard some years before, perhaps only 2-3 times, but somehow it remained intact in my head. It really messed with my mind for a while.
- andrewflnr 15y agoThank you. That was much better than the original post, well worth the long read.
- Todd 15y ago"Better" perhaps, but also different. I think Derek's post was more about culture and less about daily life and modes of thought. I enjoyed both.
- andrewflnr 15y agoPersonally, I didn't find Derek's post to be anything new. It was basically just an eloquent rephrasing of "some things we think are fundamental values are just cultural". I knew that already.
- Todd 15y agoAgreed, but there were still some interesting anecdotes and perspectives from his POV in Singapore.
- cantbecool 15y agoThank you for posting DFW's commencement speech. After reading it, I realized that I think under my default setting the majority of the time. It's something I am now consciously going to work on changing.
- ahoyhere 15y agoThe phrase "fish don't have a word for water" (and many permutations thereof) existed before both essays. So it's quite possible that both DFW's speech and Derek's essay have nothing to do with each other. I'm surprised that no one here knows it.
- qeorge 15y agoI hadn't heard that form, but I like it. Its almost a reverse snowclone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowclone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowclone
- bh42222 15y agoGood god, reading that knowing how things ultimately ended is horrible! It is unimaginably hard to do this, to stay conscious and alive, day in and day out. Rest in peace David.
- happypeter 15y agorefreshing article, I love it. I am from mainland China, a country boy actually. but I love a bit of uncertainty out of my life. anyway, we are mortal, no one going to secure you out of death. So what can you lose?
- wisty 15y agoI've met a lot of mainland Chinese who want to start a business. Others want to be a manager, or work for the government, but that's only possible if they have the right connections.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- matt_s 15y ago>"no one going to secure you out of death" Maybe some translation showing, but this is a very insightful observation. People want all the security they can get, but the inevitable is true for all of us, so better make the most of what you have.
- danfitch 15y agoLove his articles. They may not be 100% his ideas but with a quick article you can be refreshed and ready to look at the world differently.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- kgermino 15y agoThis is true even on a much more micro level. As a Chicagoan who recently moved to moved to Milwaukee (< 100 miles) I'm continually surprised by cultural differences. There's still a lot the two cities have in common but in day-to-day living the differences really start to show. I.e. I meant ion to a random friend in Chicago that I'm bummed there's no way for me to take transit to work and I get sympathetic agreement. I mention the same to someone in Milwaukee and they look at me like I have two heads (why would you want to do that?)
- ColinWright 15y agoNot to be "That Guy," but where you've written "I.e." I think you mean "For example," which is "e.g." It took me several seconds to realize what it was you most likely meant, and it really detracted from the point of your story. Most people don't care about these things, and that's cool, but clear and effective writing is important in all fields (and Edsger W. Dijkstra said "Besides a mathematical inclination, an exceptionally good mastery of one's native tongue is the most vital asset of a competent programmer." - I don't agree with everything Dijkstra wrote, but this one is relevant and true enough.) Mistakes like this can really detract from getting the message across. ADDED IN EDIT: I see I'm not the first: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2673074 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2673074
- icebraining 15y agoTo be extra pedantic, I don't think Latin is parent's native language ;)
- ColinWright 15y agoNo, understood, but when using Latin abbreviations one should still choose the correct one. I've always assumed that Dijkstra meant that one should attempt to gain mastery in the language one was using to communicate. It always amazes and humbles me how well non-native English speakers communicate in English. I was trying to help, not to criticize or condemn.
- 15y ago
- jerrya 15y agoIs there any evidence fish don't "know" they are in water? I've seen plenty of fish from flying fish, to carp, to sharks jump completely out of water time after time after time. The archer fish can accurately shoot (spit at) flies that are out of water and down them (and eat them) so something within the fish can correct for refraction. Salmon can be seen jumping out of water, and against a strong current, they can be seen swimming very hard, and making little headway or even giving up ground. It's not clear to me that fish don't understand they are within water. citation-needed.jpg
- andrewflnr 15y agoAssuming they can "know" anything in a sense recognizable to human consciousness, I would imagine they can instinctively understand the properties of they medium they live in without being "aware" of it, or thinking about it much. How often do you think about air? But I'm just speculating, as well. It makes a good illustration for the real point, in any case. ;)
- forkandwait 15y ago"Knowledge how" versus "Knowledge about." When one is driving a car, one doesn't say to oneself "Wow, I am driving a car." That doesn't mean one can't have that knowledge, it just doesn't come up -- unless something breaks, and one can't drive the car and is trying to figure out why and communicate it. Knowledge-how is implicit in all of the universe. Knowledge-about might be only possible with language. All speculation...
- CoachRufus87 15y agoplease tell me you're joking.
- jerrya 15y agoArticle starts with assumption of premise P. I believe premise P is likely false. F => X is T for all X, so I am not sure what the point of reading the rest of the article is. I ask for some evidence that P is true. You tell me of your need that I tell you I am joking. I do not understand your need.
- ThomPete 15y agoI first moved to the US in the late nineties and stayed there for 4 years. I thought I would learn a lot about American culture which I did. But what I didn't expect was how much I learned about my own (Danish) culture. I also learned who where my friends, who did I miss, who I could live without. I swam across the pond from one culture to another and learned that the water might be different but the fish are more or less the same. I have to say I liked the new pond better than the old one.
- yardie 15y agoI did the opposite swim and have had the exact same experience. I miss some of my friends but found my family to be much more reliable. I try to avoid having preference of one pond over another. I now understand how each system is different and see the advantages and flaws in both. One thing I try to avoid is "immigrant guilt". I don't know if there is a word for it but when you move to another country some try to over compensate for fear of losing their identity, ie. being extra British, or extra American (this is the one people tend to meet it seems), or extra French. These people tend to celebrate the national holidays even if they never did before, wear patriotic or national shirts, or go extra thick on the language.
- ThomPete 15y agoI agree with you. When I say I prefer one over another it's not based on good vs. bad. It's more "when all comes to all"
- danssig 15y ago>compensate for fear of losing their identity My experience is the same as both of you except I don't really count where I was born as my identity. It informs and effects my actions but I try to choose where I live based on where I can have the best quality of life.
- JoeAltmaier 15y agoUnitarians do this, but with religeon. Few are born into it; most are disaffected from something else. There are said to be 3 phases 1) Boy those {what I used to be} are full of it. 2) So, what's all this Unitarian stuff about? 3) {long delay} I see, I will always be {what I used to be}
- est 15y agoAnd human don't know they see the fish upside down. To a fish, the ground is the water level. The fish belly is actually their back.
- corin_ 15y agoWell that just plain isn't the case. Up and down are relative directions, not absolutes, and as fish are unable to think like this, we (humans) are the only ones able to define "up" or "down". Even for us they are relative, but generally speaking on earth they are defined either by gravity or by feet and head on a human body standing up. Either way, whatever way a fish swims, it's not upside down by our definitions. And however you chose to define it, we still class it by our definition, not by "what might we think if we were a fish capable of human levels of thought?". And as to front/back... well that's theoretially described by the direction of the animal's normal movement. But regardless of that, again if you are defining a fish, it can only be defined by our grammar, not by their world.
- est 15y ago> we (humans) are the only ones able to define "up" or "down". No, you english speaking guys are the only ones able to define "up" or "down".
- minikomi 15y agoIs not "Down" with gravity, and "Up" against?
- rsaarelm 15y agoThere was once a wise and venerated fish who preached about water. Water, he would say, surrounds and supports us. We are all in and of the water, and where there is nothing else there is water. Fish came from all over the ocean to hear him teach. 'I have nothing to teach,' he said, 'only enjoy the water,' but they came anyway, and some of them began to understand the water, and some of them came to understand it fully, and were called awakened. One day a fish came and said 'Teach me of the water'. The teacher said 'I have nothing to teach. The water is all around us, above and below, and it fills the spaces where nothing else is.' The fish frowned thoughtfully. 'You mean this stuff?' he asked, and flicked a fin so that a wave of water lightly struck the teacher's face. 'Yes,' said the teacher, bowing his head and smiling in acknowledgement 'that is the water; I see you have attainment.' 'Oh,' said the fish, surprised, 'that's it?' 'That's it.' 'Oh, okay,' said the fish, 'nice weather we're having, eh?'" from http://www.davidchess.com/words/BrokenKoans.html http://www.davidchess.com/words/BrokenKoans.html
- JonnieCache 15y ago>from http://www.davidchess.com/words/BrokenKoans.html http://www.davidchess.com/words/BrokenKoans.html This has cheered me up immensely at the start of the week; I may not have to kill myself now, and may just affix some of these to my wall instead.
- mattdeboard 15y agoMaybe you're joking, maybe not. It's impossible for anyone to know on the Internet. Be that as it may, if you're really contemplating suicide, please talk to someone about your feelings -- or lack thereof -- before you do anything else. Even if it's just a stranger at a hotline.
- grannyg00se 15y agoI don't understand these. For example "Gutei raised his finger whenever he was asked a question about Zen. A boy attendant began to imitate him in this way. When anyone asked the boy what his master had preached about, the boy would raise his finger. Gutei heard about the boy's mischief. He seized him and cut off his finger. The boy cried and ran away. " What is the purpose of this type of story? Is it supposed to be funny, shocking, insightful, or just a time killer? I find it to be mostly useless. I read a few of them and they seemed like boring short stories.
- brisance 15y agoIf Derek were to rephrase the question as, "How many of you would like to work in government some day?", I would bet almost all 50 hands would go up. The reason for it is that in Singapore, many regard a government job as one with the highest job security, best pay and benefits. Our cabinet ministers are paid millions a year[1]. Obama's allowance is about what a fairly low official would be paid. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Singapore#Remuneration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Singapore#Remunerati...
- cheez 15y agoOh my goodness... How do you feel about that?
- ryan-allen 15y agoI suppose it depends on how good a job they do.
- rdouble 15y agoIn America (and the UK), government jobs are also the ones with the highest job security, best pay and benefits. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8501369/Workers-in-the-public-sector-are-more-than-40pc-better-off.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8501369/Workers-in-...
- ry0ohki 15y agoAnd yet, perhaps because of the reasons mentioned, having a Government job is in many ways an embarrassment in this country.
- iqster 15y agoI'm curious if people have done the math on Govt jobs ... especially with respect to pensions? Whenever I've looked into it, I've felt some disbelief. Many govt employees in the US and Canada have defined benefit pension plans ... I sometimes think I'll never be able to save half that much because of my low-risk savings/investment style. I've never considered such jobs personally because I don't feel it is what I want out of life. As I get older, I do wonder whether I am just being a fish missing the larger world of opportunities :)
- JacobIrwin 15y agoIt's funny. I feel like my grandparents take it the same way as that classroom with 50 students. It's a perfect comparison even. ... ..Two generations behind.
- estel 15y agoWhy do you equate this to being behind? The generational analogy seems perfectly apt, but that doesn't make out outlook worse or less sophisticated than the other.
- mattdeboard 15y ago>Why do you equate this to being behind? Because the future is perceived as more advanced than the past, having built on the notions/achievements/etc., of the past. Arrow of time points in one direction. (At least for humans)
- pavel_lishin 15y ago> the future is perceived as more advanced than the past This is a very recent development, and it's still not universal. For the longest time, people believed that things were better in the past, that we are slowly moving away from a golden age, and that things are getting worse. Some concrete examples are the biblical Garden of Eden/Armageddon; beliefs in Atlantis and other mystical places; the admiration for the Greek and Roman times, especially during the dark ages.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- erikb 15y agoThe interesting thing about this lecture is, that it doesn't actually help you to see the "water". You maybe understand this fact theoretically. But without outside experience you will never know in which points you actually just follow a specific culture. Personally the lecture I learned for myself, when I made this experience in a foreign country, is that I am a lot less like "So stupid how this foreigner behaves." when I see something strange to me. I try now, not to feel too much like I am something better, because I would never do so.
- philthy 15y agoEntrepreneurship is of course everywhere and all around us. Look how complex and developed of a black market we have here in the U. S. of A.
- hboon 15y agoI was speaking to a business school class here in Singapore. I asked, “How many people would like to start their own company some day?” In a room of 50 people, only one hand (reluctantly) went up. I live in Singapore, and I wonder which school that is. I can't imagine 98% of students in that room not wanting to start their own company some day, at all when they are in business school. I remember 4 of us planning to start a business when I was in school in Singapore more than 10 years ago and all 4 of us were in electrical engineering.
- gommm 15y agoI've spent some time in Malaysia (around Penang), and most of the chinese malaysian I knew wanted to start their own business and considered being an employee to be something almost shameful... I've never seen a community of people more entrepreneurial. I always assumed that it was the same in Singapore. The part about people living with their parents is completely true though...
- hboon 15y agoNo, generally Malaysians are definitely way more entrepreneurial than Singaporeans. Singapore has a much more stable environment and state-managed vibe. Over decades, this tends to encourage less entrepreneurial spirit in people here. This is changing recently, especially with the younger generation here though. But I'd still be surprise of that kind of response in a business school here.
- sivers 15y agoIt was a class at SMU that was not about entrepreneurship - probably a management class. I didn't mean to say (& didn't say) that no Singaporeans are entrepreneurial. I could have just as likely been in an accountancy class in Zurich. It was just an example of a moment of realizing that not everyone thinks the same as the people I'm usually around.
- shawndumas 15y agoA like question is to ask kids how they feel about the ~14.7 pounds per square inch they are experiencing? My kids where very perplexed.
- runjake 15y agoIf you're not familiar with Derek, which wouldn't be hard to believe as he's not a big self-promoter, you owe yourself to go read the essays on his website. At worse, you'll grab great little nuggets of wisdom. He's also very kind and approachable. A great example of a real "rich" person in this world.
- elbrodeur 15y agoThink you of the fact that a deaf person cannot hear. Then, what deafness may we not all possess? What senses do we lack that we cannot see and cannot hear another world all around us? Frank Herbert, Dune, P.40
- listic 15y agoI'm not an American and I never went to business school, but this sounds weird to me. Isn't the whole point of going to business school to start business? I guess not, then :)
- learner4life 15y agoNo, the whole point of going to a business school is to manage a medium/big business or grow a medium business into a big business. We have not yet figured out what exactly makes a new business venture succeed (apart from having heuristics in the most general terms). We have had better luck with the question of "How do I manage an existing business?" or "How do I grow the volume of business?" which is what the business schools teach (apart from a couple of entrepreneurship courses).
- thewisedude 15y agoIn Sanskrit -> Koopa Manduka [Frog in the well]. I googled it up and found this link http://www.balagokulam.org/kids/stories/koopa.php http://www.balagokulam.org/kids/stories/koopa.php It tries to captures the idea that it is very difficult to accept something that is very radically different from what you are used to. For eg: In the narrative by Sivers, entrepreneurship is probably not so important to a different culture!