6 ms·

It's hard enough in software engineering IMHO. What used to be swivel in your chair and ask a colleague or going to whoever you need to speak to is now * Send

It's hard enough in software engineering IMHO. What used to be swivel in your chair and ask a colleague or going to whoever you need to speak to is now * Send a Slack message/email and wait an arbitrary amount of time for a response. * Organise a Skype/Teams/whatever call in a few hours time and feel guilty about it, as it feels rude to just ring someone as they could be occupied or busy. I spend a stupid amount of time having blocked stories/tasks because I need to clarify some criteria/parts of it and the people I need to speak to are difficult to reach because they're busy/AFK.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
That's not a remote problem, that's a project management and communications problem. Physical proximity is no replacement for clearly communicated requirements/bug reports/product roadmaps as well as tribal knowledge (which should not be tribal but documented somewhere searchable and robustly accessible), but it makes a nice hack when everyone is required to be in the office.
- benbristow 6y ago
  Agreed on it being PM/Communications problems. Definitely easier in the office though. Another thing is that it's often harder to write your question/problem in text as a message, when in verbal communication it's a lot easier (personally, YMMV). But having to organise calls to get that verbal communication is a pain.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    I would agree that sometimes a call or videoconf is necessary (which should be scheduled for only as much time is as absolutely necessary and the output of the meeting well documented), but it's good to flex the remote/async muscle to encourage communications best practices across an org. Communicating is a critical skill. A lot of folks are used to being lazy intra communications in an org, and imho, that shouldn't be an excuse to dissuade remote work when the benefits are incredibly clear. If you suck at comms or management in a more flexible work arrangement environment (which is okay! to get better at something you must first suck at it), it's time to get better.
    - benbristow 6y ago
      The scheduling is a pain point now though. I'm blocked until I can get a slot in your diary, which could mean I'm blocked for hours. And that's if you even accept my invitation or don't get delayed by something else. Maybe a drop-in thing could work, like Clubhouse. But then that's kinda invading your privacy if you have to stay on that.
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        Your pain point is valid, I want to make clear that I'm absolutely not minimizing it, but I have worked remote for almost a decade and I want to stress that it can be solved (as long as you're operating in a competent organization) and it pays off to solve it. There are many technological mechanisms by which to solve this, but it's primarily an organizational and cultural challenge.
  - jen20 6y ago
    Yet by writing a question or problem as text, you are forced to actually think it through, and often no longer need to interrupt someone else. Easier != more efficient.
  - sigstoat 6y ago
    > Another thing is that it's often harder to write your question/problem in text as a message, when in verbal communication it's a lot easier yes, we're finding that a lot of folks have deficient written communication skills. another problem is that a lot of developers can type fast enough to program, but not actually type fast enough to productively use email/slack. that one surprised me! i had a coworker right before covid started, who, you'd send him something in slack, and then watch the "JimBob is typing..." indicator flash on and off for 5 minutes. then he'd just show up at your door and say "no. five." or whatever the very brief answer was.
  - u801e 6y ago
    I actually have the opposite issue. That is, I find it easier to write my question down and communicate via text. Sometimes, connection issues, background noise (over video or in person) make it difficult to understand what others are saying. Also, there may be things that were said, but I may not remember, so I'll have to ask again for the information. With text, you can always go back to those messages and re-read them.
MattGaiser 6y ago
> What used to be swivel in your chair and ask a colleague or going to whoever you need to speak to is now But your need for an instant answer often derails my work flow. I can get a lot more done now that I am not being interrupted as frequently and can address questions once I have wrapped up what I am doing or at least have time to write down where specifically I stopped.
- benbristow 6y ago
  Just asking this as a talking point. Does a quick interruption that unblocks me and allows me to continue working outweigh allowing you to finish your thing first? Because maybe you're unblocked but I'm blocked by you now, and the thing that's actually blocking me. So only 1 person is able to work.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    Are specifically they blocking you, or are you stuck in general and they're the closest SWE? In the first case, it does seem a lot more reasonable to interrupt and trade-off the productivity of the blocker in favor of the blockee. At worst, that's an even trade and at best it incentivizes not being a blocker. In the second case, I'd rather not create a distributed denial of concentration scenario for SWEs who are rarely stuck to optimize for those who are more frequently stuck.
    - mulmen 6y ago
      Disagree. Unless the world is on fire there's no reason to interrupt someone to unblock yourself. Contact them asynchronously or opportunistically. If you see them in the kitchenette getting coffee then sure, ask. If they are walking back from the bathroom, sure, grab them before they resume work. But do not delude yourself into thinking you know more about prioritizing their time than they do.
      - polymeris 6y ago
        I agree in principle, but also find myself often doing my best thinking when making coffee or just "idly" staring out of a window, and would find it annoying to be interrupted just because I'm not at my desk. Luckily I work from home.
spockz 6y ago
> * Organise a Skype/Teams/whatever call in a few hours time and feel guilty about it, as it feels rude to just ring someone as they could be occupied or busy. Why is it more rude to call someone on teams where they can just decline the call than to swivel in your chair and start talking to them? If anything, I think etiquette has improved in our situation. No more in person interruptions or people just hovering at the edge of your vision to get attention. No more loudly conversing colleagues in the open plan office. Instead we have lines dropped in chat or more carefully crafted emails for longer questions.
- macintux 6y ago
  > Why is it more rude to call someone on teams where they can just decline the call than to swivel in your chair and start talking to them? In the office, you can generally observe the state of your co-worker. Are they on a phone call? Are they already talking to someone in person? A phone/Slack/Teams call can be quite disruptive if someone is already in a meeting. We haven't fully adapted work culture to remote work.
  - spockz 6y ago
    Teams shows your status as on a call or presenting already. (Or is this a server specific setting?) When I’m in a call I don’t get notifications of chats or phone calls. If I need to focus I set my status to do not disturb and I don’t get notifications and calls go to voicemail. So I do not share your observations.
  - benbristow 6y ago
    I hate Microsoft Exchange/Outlook's calendar system (integrates with Skype for Business/Teams) for that. A person can be scheduled in for an hour's long meeting but it actually only takes 10 minutes, but you check the person's status after the 10 minutes and it still says 'In a meeting' (usually differentiates with 'In a call' if they're actually in a call, but it's quite unreliable and you don't know if maybe they're having technical problems and are just about to reconnect).
  - greedo 6y ago
jen20 6y ago
It’s quite bizarre to me that you feel it’s rude to call someone, but not interrupt them at their desk. Calls may be silenced while doing work, walk-up interruptions are much harder to prevent.
- benbristow 6y ago
  It feels a lot more natural if you're sitting right next to someone or just around the corner. You can peek and make an educated decision of whether they look busy or not. If it's a call it's a bit out of the blue. Maybe they don't have their headset around/plugged in, maybe they're doing something like eating or doing laundry. You just don't know because all you see is an activity status icon.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    I pretty much never call anyone out of the blue. I'd almost certainly message them and ask them if we can have a quick call.
    - benbristow 6y ago
      I still feel sending a message for 'if we can have a quick call' is still similar to being out the blue. I feel like I'm putting pressure on someone at this time. Maybe it's just me/my personality.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        If i got a message like that: - I either wouldn't see it because I'm involved in something out and messages are not priority interrupts. (i.e. I don't have notifications turned on.) - Or, if I see it but now isn't a good time, I'll reply something like sure but right now is a bit crazy. Call my cell at xPM. (Or I'll drop something on your calendar.)
      - dzhiurgis 6y ago
        At this point I'd say disable notifications and check messages every 45 minutes once you're out of flow.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
iso1631 6y ago
We have an open slack call all day, if you want someone you just say "Bob, are you free". Bob is either busy and ignores you, or has time and can deal straight away.
- fuzzer37 6y ago
  Is that really better or different than an open office and saying "Hey, Bob" across the room?
  - iso1631 6y ago
    You can leave if you don't want to be disturbed far more easily than leaving a room, so has the benefits of the "Hey Bob" but with fewer drawbacks I see no benefits of an office environment for my team (but then the 6 of us were split over multiple locations before covid) - the benefits are in the informal communication with people from other teams.
sam0x17 6y ago
I know some teams that just sit in a video call all day with each other while they code. For these guys, it's like having everyone in the same room. People just haven't been imaginative enough about how to make remote feel like in person when desired.
grahamburger 6y ago
I'm in the sort of weird position of having worked at 3 different companies throughout the pandemic, all fully remote, and then also now having left the working world entirely to freelance. The best remote work experience that I had so far was at the last company I worked for, where I never even met any of my co-workers in person. The reason it worked well is that we had a very strong and socially re-enforced culture that worked something like this: If you're working, you're available on chat (discord). If you're not available (like taking lunch or a break) set your status so everyone knows. If you need to talk to someone, don't hesitate to ask. If you send more than 2-3 chat messages as part of a discussion, just pull everyone in to a video room immediately and talk it through. (Discord makes this really easy.) At first I was a little uneasy about being pulled in to video calls all the time, but I came to really appreciate it. I honestly think this worked better than "just turning your swivel chair" because our team was big enough that even in an office not everyone would be a swivel away.
geraneum 6y ago
If you’re sitting in my proximity and swivel in your chair and interrupt my work every time something’s not clear to you or you need a hand, I will politely ask you to stop and gather all your questions and send them in a message or email so I can look at them when I find a gap. I can’t (as a human) switch context like a CPU. It’s not just about a couple of minutes. It’s about the time that it takes me to get back into the context and in the right place where I was in, prior to the interruption. I believe this is not a good example for the point you’re trying to make.
thinkharderdev 6y ago
Wait, so it's rude to ring someone because they may be occupied or busy but it's not rude to interrupt them in person? At least with a phone call I can silence my ringer when I'm heads down or at least ignore a call if I'd rather stay focused.
eptcyka 6y ago
Why is it rude to send a PM but not rude to demand attention via physical presence?
- silicon2401 6y ago
  It is rude to demand attention via physical presence, it's just normalized by a history of in-person work and extroverts who can't realize that not everybody enjoys or needs in-person interactions
dzhiurgis 6y ago
> it feels rude to just ring someone It feels that way because it is. Demanding synchronous response even if you're a boss is despicable. Glad I don't have to work with you. Sure there are exceptions when you've got important deadlines or fires to put out, but distractions are never welcome. Sure in office it was acceptable to have 5x less productivity, but you get to coach people which felt nice internally.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

That's not a remote problem, that's a project management and communications problem. Physical proximity is no replacement for clearly communicated requirements/bug reports/product roadmaps as well as tribal knowledge (which should not be tribal but documented somewhere searchable and robustly accessible), but it makes a nice hack when everyone is required to be in the office.

benbristow 6y ago
Agreed on it being PM/Communications problems. Definitely easier in the office though. Another thing is that it's often harder to write your question/problem in text as a message, when in verbal communication it's a lot easier (personally, YMMV). But having to organise calls to get that verbal communication is a pain.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  I would agree that sometimes a call or videoconf is necessary (which should be scheduled for only as much time is as absolutely necessary and the output of the meeting well documented), but it's good to flex the remote/async muscle to encourage communications best practices across an org. Communicating is a critical skill. A lot of folks are used to being lazy intra communications in an org, and imho, that shouldn't be an excuse to dissuade remote work when the benefits are incredibly clear. If you suck at comms or management in a more flexible work arrangement environment (which is okay! to get better at something you must first suck at it), it's time to get better.
  - benbristow 6y ago
    The scheduling is a pain point now though. I'm blocked until I can get a slot in your diary, which could mean I'm blocked for hours. And that's if you even accept my invitation or don't get delayed by something else. Maybe a drop-in thing could work, like Clubhouse. But then that's kinda invading your privacy if you have to stay on that.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Your pain point is valid, I want to make clear that I'm absolutely not minimizing it, but I have worked remote for almost a decade and I want to stress that it can be solved (as long as you're operating in a competent organization) and it pays off to solve it. There are many technological mechanisms by which to solve this, but it's primarily an organizational and cultural challenge.
- jen20 6y ago
  Yet by writing a question or problem as text, you are forced to actually think it through, and often no longer need to interrupt someone else. Easier != more efficient.
- sigstoat 6y ago
  > Another thing is that it's often harder to write your question/problem in text as a message, when in verbal communication it's a lot easier yes, we're finding that a lot of folks have deficient written communication skills. another problem is that a lot of developers can type fast enough to program, but not actually type fast enough to productively use email/slack. that one surprised me! i had a coworker right before covid started, who, you'd send him something in slack, and then watch the "JimBob is typing..." indicator flash on and off for 5 minutes. then he'd just show up at your door and say "no. five." or whatever the very brief answer was.
- u801e 6y ago
  I actually have the opposite issue. That is, I find it easier to write my question down and communicate via text. Sometimes, connection issues, background noise (over video or in person) make it difficult to understand what others are saying. Also, there may be things that were said, but I may not remember, so I'll have to ask again for the information. With text, you can always go back to those messages and re-read them.

MattGaiser 6y ago

> What used to be swivel in your chair and ask a colleague or going to whoever you need to speak to is now But your need for an instant answer often derails my work flow. I can get a lot more done now that I am not being interrupted as frequently and can address questions once I have wrapped up what I am doing or at least have time to write down where specifically I stopped.

benbristow 6y ago
Just asking this as a talking point. Does a quick interruption that unblocks me and allows me to continue working outweigh allowing you to finish your thing first? Because maybe you're unblocked but I'm blocked by you now, and the thing that's actually blocking me. So only 1 person is able to work.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  Are specifically they blocking you, or are you stuck in general and they're the closest SWE? In the first case, it does seem a lot more reasonable to interrupt and trade-off the productivity of the blocker in favor of the blockee. At worst, that's an even trade and at best it incentivizes not being a blocker. In the second case, I'd rather not create a distributed denial of concentration scenario for SWEs who are rarely stuck to optimize for those who are more frequently stuck.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    Disagree. Unless the world is on fire there's no reason to interrupt someone to unblock yourself. Contact them asynchronously or opportunistically. If you see them in the kitchenette getting coffee then sure, ask. If they are walking back from the bathroom, sure, grab them before they resume work. But do not delude yourself into thinking you know more about prioritizing their time than they do.
    - polymeris 6y ago
      I agree in principle, but also find myself often doing my best thinking when making coffee or just "idly" staring out of a window, and would find it annoying to be interrupted just because I'm not at my desk. Luckily I work from home.

spockz 6y ago

> * Organise a Skype/Teams/whatever call in a few hours time and feel guilty about it, as it feels rude to just ring someone as they could be occupied or busy. Why is it more rude to call someone on teams where they can just decline the call than to swivel in your chair and start talking to them? If anything, I think etiquette has improved in our situation. No more in person interruptions or people just hovering at the edge of your vision to get attention. No more loudly conversing colleagues in the open plan office. Instead we have lines dropped in chat or more carefully crafted emails for longer questions.

macintux 6y ago
> Why is it more rude to call someone on teams where they can just decline the call than to swivel in your chair and start talking to them? In the office, you can generally observe the state of your co-worker. Are they on a phone call? Are they already talking to someone in person? A phone/Slack/Teams call can be quite disruptive if someone is already in a meeting. We haven't fully adapted work culture to remote work.
- spockz 6y ago
  Teams shows your status as on a call or presenting already. (Or is this a server specific setting?) When I’m in a call I don’t get notifications of chats or phone calls. If I need to focus I set my status to do not disturb and I don’t get notifications and calls go to voicemail. So I do not share your observations.
- benbristow 6y ago
  I hate Microsoft Exchange/Outlook's calendar system (integrates with Skype for Business/Teams) for that. A person can be scheduled in for an hour's long meeting but it actually only takes 10 minutes, but you check the person's status after the 10 minutes and it still says 'In a meeting' (usually differentiates with 'In a call' if they're actually in a call, but it's quite unreliable and you don't know if maybe they're having technical problems and are just about to reconnect).
- greedo 6y ago

jen20 6y ago

It’s quite bizarre to me that you feel it’s rude to call someone, but not interrupt them at their desk. Calls may be silenced while doing work, walk-up interruptions are much harder to prevent.

benbristow 6y ago
It feels a lot more natural if you're sitting right next to someone or just around the corner. You can peek and make an educated decision of whether they look busy or not. If it's a call it's a bit out of the blue. Maybe they don't have their headset around/plugged in, maybe they're doing something like eating or doing laundry. You just don't know because all you see is an activity status icon.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I pretty much never call anyone out of the blue. I'd almost certainly message them and ask them if we can have a quick call.
  - benbristow 6y ago
    I still feel sending a message for 'if we can have a quick call' is still similar to being out the blue. I feel like I'm putting pressure on someone at this time. Maybe it's just me/my personality.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      If i got a message like that: - I either wouldn't see it because I'm involved in something out and messages are not priority interrupts. (i.e. I don't have notifications turned on.) - Or, if I see it but now isn't a good time, I'll reply something like sure but right now is a bit crazy. Call my cell at xPM. (Or I'll drop something on your calendar.)
    - dzhiurgis 6y ago
      At this point I'd say disable notifications and check messages every 45 minutes once you're out of flow.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

iso1631 6y ago

We have an open slack call all day, if you want someone you just say "Bob, are you free". Bob is either busy and ignores you, or has time and can deal straight away.

fuzzer37 6y ago
Is that really better or different than an open office and saying "Hey, Bob" across the room?
- iso1631 6y ago
  You can leave if you don't want to be disturbed far more easily than leaving a room, so has the benefits of the "Hey Bob" but with fewer drawbacks I see no benefits of an office environment for my team (but then the 6 of us were split over multiple locations before covid) - the benefits are in the informal communication with people from other teams.

sam0x17 6y ago

I know some teams that just sit in a video call all day with each other while they code. For these guys, it's like having everyone in the same room. People just haven't been imaginative enough about how to make remote feel like in person when desired.

grahamburger 6y ago

I'm in the sort of weird position of having worked at 3 different companies throughout the pandemic, all fully remote, and then also now having left the working world entirely to freelance. The best remote work experience that I had so far was at the last company I worked for, where I never even met any of my co-workers in person. The reason it worked well is that we had a very strong and socially re-enforced culture that worked something like this: If you're working, you're available on chat (discord). If you're not available (like taking lunch or a break) set your status so everyone knows. If you need to talk to someone, don't hesitate to ask. If you send more than 2-3 chat messages as part of a discussion, just pull everyone in to a video room immediately and talk it through. (Discord makes this really easy.) At first I was a little uneasy about being pulled in to video calls all the time, but I came to really appreciate it. I honestly think this worked better than "just turning your swivel chair" because our team was big enough that even in an office not everyone would be a swivel away.

geraneum 6y ago

If you’re sitting in my proximity and swivel in your chair and interrupt my work every time something’s not clear to you or you need a hand, I will politely ask you to stop and gather all your questions and send them in a message or email so I can look at them when I find a gap. I can’t (as a human) switch context like a CPU. It’s not just about a couple of minutes. It’s about the time that it takes me to get back into the context and in the right place where I was in, prior to the interruption. I believe this is not a good example for the point you’re trying to make.

thinkharderdev 6y ago

Wait, so it's rude to ring someone because they may be occupied or busy but it's not rude to interrupt them in person? At least with a phone call I can silence my ringer when I'm heads down or at least ignore a call if I'd rather stay focused.

eptcyka 6y ago

Why is it rude to send a PM but not rude to demand attention via physical presence?

silicon2401 6y ago
It is rude to demand attention via physical presence, it's just normalized by a history of in-person work and extroverts who can't realize that not everybody enjoys or needs in-person interactions

dzhiurgis 6y ago

> it feels rude to just ring someone It feels that way because it is. Demanding synchronous response even if you're a boss is despicable. Glad I don't have to work with you. Sure there are exceptions when you've got important deadlines or fires to put out, but distractions are never welcome. Sure in office it was acceptable to have 5x less productivity, but you get to coach people which felt nice internally.