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Or, perhaps they had a year to clearly see they're perfectly incapable of doing so. Not every office job is software engineering folks... Imagine trying to man

by Alupis 6y ago

Or, perhaps they had a year to clearly see they're perfectly incapable of doing so. Not every office job is software engineering folks... Imagine trying to manage a warehouse remotely... or bounce ideas off each other in real time at a marketing agency... or any of the other normal jobs that thrive with in-person interaction. Not to mention, 34% is a minority... we can't force the other 66% to work remotely just because a minority enjoy it.

necheffa 6y ago
In a similar vain of logic, 34% is a non-trivial portion. Why should a non-trivial portion be forced to work in an office just because another non-trivial portion wants to?
- sokoloff 6y ago
  They shouldn't, but they may have to act on their preference and find a company who is going to be primarily or entirely remote.
  - mym1990 6y ago
    This. No one is forcing anyone to work in office. The job market is...market and it provides you with certain benefits for certain services and expectations in return, and for many companies one of those expectations is coming into the office. If the market moves towards more remote work, then remote work will gain more leverage in negotiations.
  - thinkharderdev 6y ago
    I think the most people overestimate how hard it is to be a remote member of a team that is in the office (especially for software engineers). I've been remote for years and up until the pandemic the rest of the team was working together in an office. I honestly never felt like it put me at a disadvantage and in many cases I think that I was the one at a considerable advantage. In general I think the future is not "fully remote" or "fully colocated" teams but teams were everyone is to some degree remote based on their preferences. So you may have some people who come into the office every day because they don't have a good workspace at home (or just like to get out of the house every day) but everyone else will come into the office somewhere between a few days a week and never.
benbristow 6y ago
It's hard enough in software engineering IMHO. What used to be swivel in your chair and ask a colleague or going to whoever you need to speak to is now * Send a Slack message/email and wait an arbitrary amount of time for a response. * Organise a Skype/Teams/whatever call in a few hours time and feel guilty about it, as it feels rude to just ring someone as they could be occupied or busy. I spend a stupid amount of time having blocked stories/tasks because I need to clarify some criteria/parts of it and the people I need to speak to are difficult to reach because they're busy/AFK.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  That's not a remote problem, that's a project management and communications problem. Physical proximity is no replacement for clearly communicated requirements/bug reports/product roadmaps as well as tribal knowledge (which should not be tribal but documented somewhere searchable and robustly accessible), but it makes a nice hack when everyone is required to be in the office.
  - benbristow 6y ago
    Agreed on it being PM/Communications problems. Definitely easier in the office though. Another thing is that it's often harder to write your question/problem in text as a message, when in verbal communication it's a lot easier (personally, YMMV). But having to organise calls to get that verbal communication is a pain.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      I would agree that sometimes a call or videoconf is necessary (which should be scheduled for only as much time is as absolutely necessary and the output of the meeting well documented), but it's good to flex the remote/async muscle to encourage communications best practices across an org. Communicating is a critical skill. A lot of folks are used to being lazy intra communications in an org, and imho, that shouldn't be an excuse to dissuade remote work when the benefits are incredibly clear. If you suck at comms or management in a more flexible work arrangement environment (which is okay! to get better at something you must first suck at it), it's time to get better.
mandelbrotwurst 6y ago
Warehouse workers were never working remotely, they got laid off. Re: your last point: 1. That 34% would quit rather than return doesn’t mean the other 66% would prefer to, just that they might not quit over it. 2. It’s possible to employ both remote and on-site workers.
- macintux 6y ago
  > 2. It’s possible to employ both remote and on-site workers. It is, but it's very difficult to sustain a hybrid work culture. People working remotely tend to get shafted on ad-hoc discussions, even promotions.
- maxharris 6y ago
  Warehouse workers were never working remotely, they got laid off. That's not what this report by the BBC says https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54431056 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54431056
  - foobiekr 6y ago
    Four warehouses on a test basis and that’s the positive spin from the startup making the claim. Please apply some well-earned skepticism.
    - maxharris 6y ago
      There is a company in Mountain View that is hiring remote forklift operators: https://lensa.com/remote-forklift-operator-jobs/mountain-view/jd/26ee048e54dc2d235ee0b9ec76526596 https://lensa.com/remote-forklift-operator-jobs/mountain-vie... From the link (pasting here for posterity): Founded in 2017, Phantom Auto is the only company capable of remotely monitoring, guiding, and driving any type of vehicle from thousands of miles away. We are an energetic and passionate team on a mission to build the future of vehicle operation. At Phantom, every day is a unique adventure as we work to solve critical transportation issues. Because we work with companies around the world, we have the unique opportunity to work with many incredible vehicles and use cases. As a member of the sales team, you will be instrumental in driving the business success of our company. If you are determined to take on the world's most complex challenges and help build an industry-defining company, this is the opportunity for you. As a Remote Forklift Operator you will be a pioneer in a job of the future and help to accelerate the rapid and safe deployment of driverless forklifts and industrial vehicles.
mulmen 6y ago
34% being unwilling to work in offices does not imply not the 66% prefer to work in offices. It is entirely possible (however unlikely) that 100% of people prefer to work remotely but that 34% demand it. You just can't infer anything about the preferences of the 66% based on the preferences of the 34%. Some jobs have to be done in person, sure. But some jobs don't. Personally the extra two hours a day and reduced stress more than make up for the lack of face-to-face meeting time with my coworkers. A friend of mine is in software sales. She doesn't need to physically be in an office ever. There are a lot of office jobs that can be done remotely.
- Closi 6y ago
  > A friend of mine is in software sales. She doesn't need to physically be in an office ever. There are a lot of office jobs that can be done remotely. Lots of things can be done remotely, but that also doesn't mean that they are all done as well remotely. To counter your example about software sales - A few months ago I conducted an RFP process for some software, and the company that scored the lowest was the company where the salesperson didn't come and see how the processes worked in person. Their software was likely just as capable, but the fact that they couldn't visit probably put them at a significant disadvantage in terms of understanding what they were replacing. If they don't understand how the existing system works, how can they be confident in their commercial offer which has some significant bespoke elements? Now this will depend on the software and company, clearly, but sales is sometimes a tricky one. Often it's about the relationship, and fundamentally people also warm to people they have seen face to face. Sometimes sales isn't about the software, it's about sitting in a room and eating Nando's together and building a relationship that way. People don't always buy software just based on functionality/cost, there is often a huge element of trust involved, and that is just harder to build over a video call.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    When she was in the office she was covering the southwest US from Seattle. Visiting a customer site for a sales meeting is not the same as "working remotely". She does not need to go into the corporate HQ every day to do software sales. Yes, she did and will in the future visit customer sites. > Only one example, but I think for most jobs something is often lost by having no physical presence and no in-person collaboration. Sure but this ignores benefits. The question is if remote work is a net negative, in terms of utility.
gabeio 6y ago
34% stated they would rather leave than return to the office. But the article goes on to say that only 25% would rather go fully back into an office. It sounds like the majority would enjoy a place they could go work if they choose to but not be forced to work in the office full time either.
Spivak 6y ago
But this isn't the argument that people are actually making. It's letting teams be mixed based on the preference of the individual employee. If the work can be done outside of an office there is no reason for an employer to require it be done in an office. It seems really weird after this last year to no respect for your employees preference on how they would like to do their work. "Hey Jim, I know you much prefer doing your job at home for reasons $x, $y, $z but I really like being able to walk over to your desk so either you come in or you're fired."
briandear 6y ago
> we can't force the other 66% to work remotely just because a minority enjoy it. That's not saying the other 66% wants to go back to the office, only that they wouldn't quit their job over it.
marvin 6y ago
The article stated that 25% preferred a full-time office situation. That's also a minority. And I don't think OP implied that the 66% who stated they wouldn't quit their jobs if forced to work on-site full time, be forced to work remotely. Half the people surveyed preferred a hybrid solution.
52-6F-62 6y ago
I don't think it's about forcing anyone to work remotely, it's about being allowed to continue and not being forced to go back to commute times and water coolers. My employer is in an industry that thrived on in-person interactions (save for any field writers/photogs). They had no remote working policy prior to the pandemic for the bulk of the staff. They have made a complete 180° change on that and acknowledged that there has been anything but a drop in productivity, and vast improvements in some areas. Remote working is going to be a first-class option going forward (at least looking that way for now). They closed two offices downtown Toronto; one at the Rogers building, and one in a heritage block on Queen E. They were landmark locations for highly visible brands centred around the city, lifestyle, society, and politics. (read: It was not a decision made lightly for the company) Now, the company owns its own print operations and those, of course, stay on site. I'm in digital operations—we're now scattered around the GTHA. After I got sick last year I underwent a bit of a sea change in attitude: my partner and I bought a used car, packed up and moved to a beautiful heritage townhouse in a smaller, greener town from our sub-500 sq/ft shoebox-in-the-sky. I'll never move back into one of those, and rent for anything else has gone off the bloody rails. There are a larger amount of remote opportunities than ever—I like my job and my employer, but I would consider switching if I was forced to move back into their remaining office in North York every day. As it is, I can make it in there by car in about an hour for the odd all-hands.
- foobiekr 6y ago
  The problem is the current situation is not reflective of real remote work. One of the biggest advocates of remote work that I know is squarely someone for whom “remote work” has meant “running errands, walking the dog, heading out early for dinner, long lunches, runs after lunch” and so on. He’s much much more productive WAH this year than he was any of the last five years because all of these non-work activities have been actively suppressed. That’s not going to last. The reality of the last 12 months is work has expanded to fill most daylight hours, meetings at 7am, meetings in the same day at 9pm, and so on. It’s not going to be possible to measure full-time remote this year until things start to open up.
  - greedo 6y ago
dendodge 6y ago
34% would rather quit than work in the office full time, that's doesn't mean another 16%+ wouldn't also prefer the option but not strongly enough to quit over it. There's also little talk I'm aware of of forcing anyone to work from home permanently, rather than just giving them the option. Also, I think the assumption that it only applies to jobs that can be done well from home is pretty much baked in already, otherwise it would be quite nonsensical to even ask. And the phrase "full time" is also important. I very highly value the increased free time and reduced costs I've experienced over the last year, but do miss in-person meetings, casual proximity to colleagues, and social events. The ideal for me would be to work from home 2 or 3 days a week, and I'd favour that quite strongly in career decisions compared to either extreme. I doubt I'm alone in that.
sam0x17 6y ago
> or bounce ideas off each other in real time at a marketing agency? What? Wouldn't you _rather_ be in a zoom call for something like that?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
foobiekr 6y ago
This. And I think a lot of software people would be shocked at how negative this year has been for quality and delivery at many companies. There is a set of SW jobs that maps well to remote - in fact, there’s huge overlap with jobs that can be successfully offshored or pushed out of house and jobs that are well suited to full-time remote. That’s been going on for two decades. The jobs that are left are not as “I can work from anywhere” as people want. Sure, you’re writing internal tools and every thing you do involves yourself and maybe one other person? Yeah.
ironmagma 6y ago
My CEO sent out a company wide email admitting we had succeeded in becoming a remote company, and proceeded to tell us remote work is not an option going forward. So... no.
- foobiekr 6y ago
  It would be amazing to see such an email. Did anyone challenge it?
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    I think it will be challenged by hordes of people leaving as the back-to-office date approaches. They said that exceptions may be granted on a case-by-case basis (because people have already been hired remotely, and on top of that the CEO himself has been working remotely since pre-Covid, so their hand is forced) with approval from the exec team. As for sharing the email, I don’t have a (full) deathwish.
- greedo 6y ago
  My company keeps on sending out surveys to see how people feel about the "Return to the Office." It's as if they'll keep sending out surveys until they get the answer they want to hear.
maxharris 6y ago
Imagine trying to manage a warehouse remotely Given the fact that forklift operators have been driving forklifts remotely during the pandemic, this is not hard to imagine at all: the present reality is that warehouses are being managed remotely. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54431056 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54431056 In addition to this, there are now many companies in the warehouse robotics space, all of whom are more than happy to provide robots that automate most of the productive functions of warehouses. For example, there are automated guide vehicles (AGVs) that move inventory around the warehouse, automated storage and retrieval systems (AS/RS) that manage inventory, store and retrieve goods on demand. In addition, there are collaborative robots or "cobots" that help the few employees you still actually need on site. Finally, there are articulated robot arms that pick, pack and palletize goods. Almost all of these can managed and operated remotely, all at a lower total cost than purely manual labor could achieve. Given the fact that warehouses are the perfect example of how the working world is going permanently remote, I'm not sure how your marketing example is any better. If you want to bounce ideas off of another person in real-time, I don't understand why the same thing can't be done at a much lower cost on a call. After all, that's how everyone has been doing it for over a year now!
- Jommi 6y ago
  What are some cool companies in this space?
  - maxharris 6y ago
    6 River Systems Fetch Geek+ Fabric Locus Robotics Logiwa RightHand Robotics Amazon Robotics (formed out of Kiva Systems, for the exclusive use of Amazon)
WalterSear 6y ago
> or bounce ideas off each other in real time at a marketing agency My SO and the rest of their team are doing absolutely fine fwiw.
geodel 6y ago
Well, I think it is about remote workers. For folks who have to be onsite like warehouse managers it is anyway not an option. > we can't force the other 66% to work remotely Yes, I think it is not going to happen. But management can force quite a few more than those who are themselves willing to work from home, if it can save some money.
AlexCoventry 6y ago
34% is a big chunk, though, and it makes sense to accomodate them on a deal-breaker, if possible. Doesn't mean everyone has to work remote, but for instance it might be sensible to make meetings remote-friendly by requiring everyone to connect through zoom, even if most of them are in the same room.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Not every office job is software engineering folks... Imagine trying to manage a warehouse remotely.. I suspect that ~0% of people currently working remotely due to the pandemic are managing warehouses. > or bounce ideas off each other in real time at a marketing agency I’m...not having trouble imagining that. I imagine it would take a bit of getting used to using online collaboration tools for that, which would — even with the tech being ready — stop any agency from voluntarily making the transition if they weren’t forced to by exigent circumstances, but I don’t have trouble seeing it working well once the initial transition period was cleared. > Not to mention, 34% is a minority... But probably not equally distributed across all job types and employers; there’s probably employers where there are entire functions where that’s near 100%. And, actually, in work we often force the vast majority to work in particular conditions because a minority that has disproportionate influence prefers it. Which is actually why even where there is overwhelming support from employees for remote work and greater productivity, managers addicted to practices incompatible with remote work will bring employees back to work.
- Alupis 6y ago
  I think disregarding what a clear majority of workers desire is quite callous, particularly since remote working tools are simply not an adequate replacement for in-person interactions. There is a bigger world outside "the valley". It's not surprising overpaid software engineers living in major cities, accustomed to forking over $4,000+ a month for tiny studio apartments are enjoying their experiences outside those circumstances. Perhaps those same folks that refuse to return to the office can find happy employment at a local business in their newfound town instead.

by Alupis 6y ago

necheffa 6y ago

In a similar vain of logic, 34% is a non-trivial portion. Why should a non-trivial portion be forced to work in an office just because another non-trivial portion wants to?

sokoloff 6y ago
They shouldn't, but they may have to act on their preference and find a company who is going to be primarily or entirely remote.
- mym1990 6y ago
  This. No one is forcing anyone to work in office. The job market is...market and it provides you with certain benefits for certain services and expectations in return, and for many companies one of those expectations is coming into the office. If the market moves towards more remote work, then remote work will gain more leverage in negotiations.
- thinkharderdev 6y ago
  I think the most people overestimate how hard it is to be a remote member of a team that is in the office (especially for software engineers). I've been remote for years and up until the pandemic the rest of the team was working together in an office. I honestly never felt like it put me at a disadvantage and in many cases I think that I was the one at a considerable advantage. In general I think the future is not "fully remote" or "fully colocated" teams but teams were everyone is to some degree remote based on their preferences. So you may have some people who come into the office every day because they don't have a good workspace at home (or just like to get out of the house every day) but everyone else will come into the office somewhere between a few days a week and never.

benbristow 6y ago

It's hard enough in software engineering IMHO. What used to be swivel in your chair and ask a colleague or going to whoever you need to speak to is now * Send a Slack message/email and wait an arbitrary amount of time for a response. * Organise a Skype/Teams/whatever call in a few hours time and feel guilty about it, as it feels rude to just ring someone as they could be occupied or busy. I spend a stupid amount of time having blocked stories/tasks because I need to clarify some criteria/parts of it and the people I need to speak to are difficult to reach because they're busy/AFK.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
That's not a remote problem, that's a project management and communications problem. Physical proximity is no replacement for clearly communicated requirements/bug reports/product roadmaps as well as tribal knowledge (which should not be tribal but documented somewhere searchable and robustly accessible), but it makes a nice hack when everyone is required to be in the office.
- benbristow 6y ago
  Agreed on it being PM/Communications problems. Definitely easier in the office though. Another thing is that it's often harder to write your question/problem in text as a message, when in verbal communication it's a lot easier (personally, YMMV). But having to organise calls to get that verbal communication is a pain.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    I would agree that sometimes a call or videoconf is necessary (which should be scheduled for only as much time is as absolutely necessary and the output of the meeting well documented), but it's good to flex the remote/async muscle to encourage communications best practices across an org. Communicating is a critical skill. A lot of folks are used to being lazy intra communications in an org, and imho, that shouldn't be an excuse to dissuade remote work when the benefits are incredibly clear. If you suck at comms or management in a more flexible work arrangement environment (which is okay! to get better at something you must first suck at it), it's time to get better.

mandelbrotwurst 6y ago

Warehouse workers were never working remotely, they got laid off. Re: your last point: 1. That 34% would quit rather than return doesn’t mean the other 66% would prefer to, just that they might not quit over it. 2. It’s possible to employ both remote and on-site workers.

macintux 6y ago
> 2. It’s possible to employ both remote and on-site workers. It is, but it's very difficult to sustain a hybrid work culture. People working remotely tend to get shafted on ad-hoc discussions, even promotions.
maxharris 6y ago
Warehouse workers were never working remotely, they got laid off. That's not what this report by the BBC says https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54431056 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54431056
- foobiekr 6y ago
  Four warehouses on a test basis and that’s the positive spin from the startup making the claim. Please apply some well-earned skepticism.
  - maxharris 6y ago
    There is a company in Mountain View that is hiring remote forklift operators: https://lensa.com/remote-forklift-operator-jobs/mountain-view/jd/26ee048e54dc2d235ee0b9ec76526596 https://lensa.com/remote-forklift-operator-jobs/mountain-vie... From the link (pasting here for posterity): Founded in 2017, Phantom Auto is the only company capable of remotely monitoring, guiding, and driving any type of vehicle from thousands of miles away. We are an energetic and passionate team on a mission to build the future of vehicle operation. At Phantom, every day is a unique adventure as we work to solve critical transportation issues. Because we work with companies around the world, we have the unique opportunity to work with many incredible vehicles and use cases. As a member of the sales team, you will be instrumental in driving the business success of our company. If you are determined to take on the world's most complex challenges and help build an industry-defining company, this is the opportunity for you. As a Remote Forklift Operator you will be a pioneer in a job of the future and help to accelerate the rapid and safe deployment of driverless forklifts and industrial vehicles.

mulmen 6y ago

34% being unwilling to work in offices does not imply not the 66% prefer to work in offices. It is entirely possible (however unlikely) that 100% of people prefer to work remotely but that 34% demand it. You just can't infer anything about the preferences of the 66% based on the preferences of the 34%. Some jobs have to be done in person, sure. But some jobs don't. Personally the extra two hours a day and reduced stress more than make up for the lack of face-to-face meeting time with my coworkers. A friend of mine is in software sales. She doesn't need to physically be in an office ever. There are a lot of office jobs that can be done remotely.

Closi 6y ago
> A friend of mine is in software sales. She doesn't need to physically be in an office ever. There are a lot of office jobs that can be done remotely. Lots of things can be done remotely, but that also doesn't mean that they are all done as well remotely. To counter your example about software sales - A few months ago I conducted an RFP process for some software, and the company that scored the lowest was the company where the salesperson didn't come and see how the processes worked in person. Their software was likely just as capable, but the fact that they couldn't visit probably put them at a significant disadvantage in terms of understanding what they were replacing. If they don't understand how the existing system works, how can they be confident in their commercial offer which has some significant bespoke elements? Now this will depend on the software and company, clearly, but sales is sometimes a tricky one. Often it's about the relationship, and fundamentally people also warm to people they have seen face to face. Sometimes sales isn't about the software, it's about sitting in a room and eating Nando's together and building a relationship that way. People don't always buy software just based on functionality/cost, there is often a huge element of trust involved, and that is just harder to build over a video call.
- mulmen 6y ago
  When she was in the office she was covering the southwest US from Seattle. Visiting a customer site for a sales meeting is not the same as "working remotely". She does not need to go into the corporate HQ every day to do software sales. Yes, she did and will in the future visit customer sites. > Only one example, but I think for most jobs something is often lost by having no physical presence and no in-person collaboration. Sure but this ignores benefits. The question is if remote work is a net negative, in terms of utility.

gabeio 6y ago

34% stated they would rather leave than return to the office. But the article goes on to say that only 25% would rather go fully back into an office. It sounds like the majority would enjoy a place they could go work if they choose to but not be forced to work in the office full time either.

Spivak 6y ago

But this isn't the argument that people are actually making. It's letting teams be mixed based on the preference of the individual employee. If the work can be done outside of an office there is no reason for an employer to require it be done in an office. It seems really weird after this last year to no respect for your employees preference on how they would like to do their work. "Hey Jim, I know you much prefer doing your job at home for reasons $x, $y, $z but I really like being able to walk over to your desk so either you come in or you're fired."

briandear 6y ago

> we can't force the other 66% to work remotely just because a minority enjoy it. That's not saying the other 66% wants to go back to the office, only that they wouldn't quit their job over it.

marvin 6y ago

The article stated that 25% preferred a full-time office situation. That's also a minority. And I don't think OP implied that the 66% who stated they wouldn't quit their jobs if forced to work on-site full time, be forced to work remotely. Half the people surveyed preferred a hybrid solution.

52-6F-62 6y ago

I don't think it's about forcing anyone to work remotely, it's about being allowed to continue and not being forced to go back to commute times and water coolers. My employer is in an industry that thrived on in-person interactions (save for any field writers/photogs). They had no remote working policy prior to the pandemic for the bulk of the staff. They have made a complete 180° change on that and acknowledged that there has been anything but a drop in productivity, and vast improvements in some areas. Remote working is going to be a first-class option going forward (at least looking that way for now). They closed two offices downtown Toronto; one at the Rogers building, and one in a heritage block on Queen E. They were landmark locations for highly visible brands centred around the city, lifestyle, society, and politics. (read: It was not a decision made lightly for the company) Now, the company owns its own print operations and those, of course, stay on site. I'm in digital operations—we're now scattered around the GTHA. After I got sick last year I underwent a bit of a sea change in attitude: my partner and I bought a used car, packed up and moved to a beautiful heritage townhouse in a smaller, greener town from our sub-500 sq/ft shoebox-in-the-sky. I'll never move back into one of those, and rent for anything else has gone off the bloody rails. There are a larger amount of remote opportunities than ever—I like my job and my employer, but I would consider switching if I was forced to move back into their remaining office in North York every day. As it is, I can make it in there by car in about an hour for the odd all-hands.

foobiekr 6y ago
The problem is the current situation is not reflective of real remote work. One of the biggest advocates of remote work that I know is squarely someone for whom “remote work” has meant “running errands, walking the dog, heading out early for dinner, long lunches, runs after lunch” and so on. He’s much much more productive WAH this year than he was any of the last five years because all of these non-work activities have been actively suppressed. That’s not going to last. The reality of the last 12 months is work has expanded to fill most daylight hours, meetings at 7am, meetings in the same day at 9pm, and so on. It’s not going to be possible to measure full-time remote this year until things start to open up.
- greedo 6y ago

dendodge 6y ago

34% would rather quit than work in the office full time, that's doesn't mean another 16%+ wouldn't also prefer the option but not strongly enough to quit over it. There's also little talk I'm aware of of forcing anyone to work from home permanently, rather than just giving them the option. Also, I think the assumption that it only applies to jobs that can be done well from home is pretty much baked in already, otherwise it would be quite nonsensical to even ask. And the phrase "full time" is also important. I very highly value the increased free time and reduced costs I've experienced over the last year, but do miss in-person meetings, casual proximity to colleagues, and social events. The ideal for me would be to work from home 2 or 3 days a week, and I'd favour that quite strongly in career decisions compared to either extreme. I doubt I'm alone in that.

sam0x17 6y ago

> or bounce ideas off each other in real time at a marketing agency? What? Wouldn't you _rather_ be in a zoom call for something like that?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

foobiekr 6y ago

This. And I think a lot of software people would be shocked at how negative this year has been for quality and delivery at many companies. There is a set of SW jobs that maps well to remote - in fact, there’s huge overlap with jobs that can be successfully offshored or pushed out of house and jobs that are well suited to full-time remote. That’s been going on for two decades. The jobs that are left are not as “I can work from anywhere” as people want. Sure, you’re writing internal tools and every thing you do involves yourself and maybe one other person? Yeah.

ironmagma 6y ago

My CEO sent out a company wide email admitting we had succeeded in becoming a remote company, and proceeded to tell us remote work is not an option going forward. So... no.

foobiekr 6y ago
It would be amazing to see such an email. Did anyone challenge it?
- ironmagma 6y ago
  I think it will be challenged by hordes of people leaving as the back-to-office date approaches. They said that exceptions may be granted on a case-by-case basis (because people have already been hired remotely, and on top of that the CEO himself has been working remotely since pre-Covid, so their hand is forced) with approval from the exec team. As for sharing the email, I don’t have a (full) deathwish.
greedo 6y ago
My company keeps on sending out surveys to see how people feel about the "Return to the Office." It's as if they'll keep sending out surveys until they get the answer they want to hear.

maxharris 6y ago

Imagine trying to manage a warehouse remotely Given the fact that forklift operators have been driving forklifts remotely during the pandemic, this is not hard to imagine at all: the present reality is that warehouses are being managed remotely. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54431056 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54431056 In addition to this, there are now many companies in the warehouse robotics space, all of whom are more than happy to provide robots that automate most of the productive functions of warehouses. For example, there are automated guide vehicles (AGVs) that move inventory around the warehouse, automated storage and retrieval systems (AS/RS) that manage inventory, store and retrieve goods on demand. In addition, there are collaborative robots or "cobots" that help the few employees you still actually need on site. Finally, there are articulated robot arms that pick, pack and palletize goods. Almost all of these can managed and operated remotely, all at a lower total cost than purely manual labor could achieve. Given the fact that warehouses are the perfect example of how the working world is going permanently remote, I'm not sure how your marketing example is any better. If you want to bounce ideas off of another person in real-time, I don't understand why the same thing can't be done at a much lower cost on a call. After all, that's how everyone has been doing it for over a year now!

Jommi 6y ago
What are some cool companies in this space?
- maxharris 6y ago
  6 River Systems Fetch Geek+ Fabric Locus Robotics Logiwa RightHand Robotics Amazon Robotics (formed out of Kiva Systems, for the exclusive use of Amazon)

WalterSear 6y ago

> or bounce ideas off each other in real time at a marketing agency My SO and the rest of their team are doing absolutely fine fwiw.

geodel 6y ago

Well, I think it is about remote workers. For folks who have to be onsite like warehouse managers it is anyway not an option. > we can't force the other 66% to work remotely Yes, I think it is not going to happen. But management can force quite a few more than those who are themselves willing to work from home, if it can save some money.

AlexCoventry 6y ago

34% is a big chunk, though, and it makes sense to accomodate them on a deal-breaker, if possible. Doesn't mean everyone has to work remote, but for instance it might be sensible to make meetings remote-friendly by requiring everyone to connect through zoom, even if most of them are in the same room.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Not every office job is software engineering folks... Imagine trying to manage a warehouse remotely.. I suspect that ~0% of people currently working remotely due to the pandemic are managing warehouses. > or bounce ideas off each other in real time at a marketing agency I’m...not having trouble imagining that. I imagine it would take a bit of getting used to using online collaboration tools for that, which would — even with the tech being ready — stop any agency from voluntarily making the transition if they weren’t forced to by exigent circumstances, but I don’t have trouble seeing it working well once the initial transition period was cleared. > Not to mention, 34% is a minority... But probably not equally distributed across all job types and employers; there’s probably employers where there are entire functions where that’s near 100%. And, actually, in work we often force the vast majority to work in particular conditions because a minority that has disproportionate influence prefers it. Which is actually why even where there is overwhelming support from employees for remote work and greater productivity, managers addicted to practices incompatible with remote work will bring employees back to work.

Alupis 6y ago
I think disregarding what a clear majority of workers desire is quite callous, particularly since remote working tools are simply not an adequate replacement for in-person interactions. There is a bigger world outside "the valley". It's not surprising overpaid software engineers living in major cities, accustomed to forking over $4,000+ a month for tiny studio apartments are enjoying their experiences outside those circumstances. Perhaps those same folks that refuse to return to the office can find happy employment at a local business in their newfound town instead.