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This is a real shame. I wish we could do something to stop this insanity. Their dogmatic approach to D&I is really scary honestly. On top of that, you are mark

This is a real shame. I wish we could do something to stop this insanity. Their dogmatic approach to D&I is really scary honestly. On top of that, you are marked if you are a "cis white male". It doesn't matter if you are an immigrant. It doesn't matter if you are jewish (less than 0.003% of the global population, so one of most minority minorities), doesn't matter if you have a rich ethnic background with white skin. Why can't people just get rid of the racists and sexists without going crazy?

wayoutthere 6y ago
Because that’s not what it’s about; it’s about having a diverse leadership that more closely resembles the makeup of our nation and communities. Cis white men make up only about 30% of our population but account for probably 80% (and that’s being generous) of positions above middle management. It’s the cultural homogeneity that’s the business problem, and that doesn’t get solved without the right optics. Most of these jobs are not so hard that a person who is appropriately trained / supported couldn’t do them. Again, gen Z is the most diverse generation in history. If you want to hire talent over the next decade, your company’s leadership needs to resemble your prospective employees because they take it as a hiring signal. The problem isn’t cis white men; it’s the sense of entitlement that cis white men often walk around with. I have plenty of coworkers who are white men and great allies because they recognize that others are not entitled to the same things based on pretty arbitrary criteria. But the entitlement (“you’re gonna take the job I’ve been working towards for years and give it to a new ‘diversity’ hire!?”) is the problem, especially in the upper ranks.
- knightofmars 6y ago
  > But the entitlement (“you’re gonna take the job I’ve been working towards for years and give it to a new ‘diversity’ hire!?”) is the problem, especially in the upper ranks. Thank you for pointing out this exact mindset. As a cis white man myself, if I was up against someone else for the same position and we were equally matched in all ways except the other individual was in the minority when compared against the overall make-up of the position's peers, then I would fully expect the company to pick the other individual over me. Diversity is valuable because different life experiences which provide a different perspective are valuable. Additionally, a company is far more likely to attract top talent from diverse pools if you have diversity in your company. (I just realized you said this in your original post! "If you want to hire talent over the next decade, your company’s leadership needs to resemble your prospective employees because they take it as a hiring signal.")
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    > except the other individual was in the minority when compared against the overall make-up of the position's peers Problem: that's everyone. No one brings your unique viewpoint of life. Just because two people look the same doesn't mean a lick about their life experiences or who they are on the inside. Everyone at your company, wherever you are, is fundamentally a completely different person from you. If you want real variety, the way to do that is by interviewing people, not by looking at them.
    - knightofmars 6y ago
      Would you say that the experience of the average cis gender white man is as unique as that of the average cis gender black woman? Or that the average cis gender white man would have the experiences required to have the perspective of the average cis gender black woman?
      - ironmagma 6y ago
        No one has the experiences required to have the perspective of another person; that would require having lived two lives. Everyone has exactly one perspective, and because no one lives the exact same life, that perspective is unique. There’s some kind of belief going around that there are some kinds of people who understand some things in a way no one else can understand. This is tantamount to the “God works in mysterious ways” argument - because we can’t come up with a real dimension to make a claim about, we say there is something magically unique about being poor, or being asexual, or any number of things. Sorry to say, but I don’t believe in magic. There are a few dimensions poor people are more optimized along, for example, maybe grit and resiliency, and there are rough correlations along the racial boundaries as well. But until you actually talk to a person, you’ll have no idea who they are.
        knightofmars 6y ago
        I'm extrapolating here, but effectively you're arguing that diversity initiatives don't provide any value because everyone lives a unique life?
- ironmagma 6y ago
  But as it's been said many times, corporations aren't democracies. (And regardless of moral value, they never will be.) The expectation that your leadership should look like you is fraught and misunderstands the whole idea of a corporation. We don't hire according to population makeup, we hire according to an arbitrary set of metrics that roughly correlate with drive to create value.
  - wayoutthere 6y ago
    The expectation is societal by their participation in the political process; because the voice of the population carries far less weight than that of a large corporation, there will be strong internal pressure for the company to take a political stance on an issue. The corporations opened this Pandora’s box; if they want the workplace to be apolitical again they need to work with Congress to muzzle themselves and stay out of politics altogether. (Also those “arbitrary metrics” now largely include diversity metrics because they do actually increase profitability in the long run.)
- axguscbklp 6y ago
  Jewish people are significantly overrepresented in positions of power relative to their population size. Should companies treat this is a cultural homogeneity problem and try to make it so that Jewish people are represented more closely in line to their actual numbers? Or how about Asian-Americans in tech? Asian-Americans are only a tiny fraction of Americans but make up a substantial part of the tech industry. Is that a cultural homogeneity problem that companies should try to solve by working to increase the representation of people who are not Asian-American?
  - wayoutthere 6y ago
    Uh, yes actually. To both. That said, this situation almost never happens beyond an individual contributor level — where diversity is already less of a problem because diverse candidates hit a glass ceiling and move no further.
    - kjjjjjjjjjjjjjj 6y ago
      >Uh, yes actually. To both. What a disgusting opinion you have. Of course the two cultures that strongly value education and success are... successful.
- aantix 6y ago
  The contention is whether you can accurately ascertain the experiences of any of the cohorts that you cite. Each cohort literally represents millions of people (billions if including the world). This makes the cohorts meaningless. And it's in the category of generalizations that we've been fighting. It's part of the problem, not the solution.
- kjjjjjjjjjjjjjj 6y ago
  Oh okay so if we are going by populations, all companies should strictly be 6.7% black and no more, right?

wayoutthere 6y ago

Because that’s not what it’s about; it’s about having a diverse leadership that more closely resembles the makeup of our nation and communities. Cis white men make up only about 30% of our population but account for probably 80% (and that’s being generous) of positions above middle management. It’s the cultural homogeneity that’s the business problem, and that doesn’t get solved without the right optics. Most of these jobs are not so hard that a person who is appropriately trained / supported couldn’t do them. Again, gen Z is the most diverse generation in history. If you want to hire talent over the next decade, your company’s leadership needs to resemble your prospective employees because they take it as a hiring signal. The problem isn’t cis white men; it’s the sense of entitlement that cis white men often walk around with. I have plenty of coworkers who are white men and great allies because they recognize that others are not entitled to the same things based on pretty arbitrary criteria. But the entitlement (“you’re gonna take the job I’ve been working towards for years and give it to a new ‘diversity’ hire!?”) is the problem, especially in the upper ranks.

knightofmars 6y ago
> But the entitlement (“you’re gonna take the job I’ve been working towards for years and give it to a new ‘diversity’ hire!?”) is the problem, especially in the upper ranks. Thank you for pointing out this exact mindset. As a cis white man myself, if I was up against someone else for the same position and we were equally matched in all ways except the other individual was in the minority when compared against the overall make-up of the position's peers, then I would fully expect the company to pick the other individual over me. Diversity is valuable because different life experiences which provide a different perspective are valuable. Additionally, a company is far more likely to attract top talent from diverse pools if you have diversity in your company. (I just realized you said this in your original post! "If you want to hire talent over the next decade, your company’s leadership needs to resemble your prospective employees because they take it as a hiring signal.")
- ironmagma 6y ago
  > except the other individual was in the minority when compared against the overall make-up of the position's peers Problem: that's everyone. No one brings your unique viewpoint of life. Just because two people look the same doesn't mean a lick about their life experiences or who they are on the inside. Everyone at your company, wherever you are, is fundamentally a completely different person from you. If you want real variety, the way to do that is by interviewing people, not by looking at them.
  - knightofmars 6y ago
    Would you say that the experience of the average cis gender white man is as unique as that of the average cis gender black woman? Or that the average cis gender white man would have the experiences required to have the perspective of the average cis gender black woman?
    - ironmagma 6y ago
      No one has the experiences required to have the perspective of another person; that would require having lived two lives. Everyone has exactly one perspective, and because no one lives the exact same life, that perspective is unique. There’s some kind of belief going around that there are some kinds of people who understand some things in a way no one else can understand. This is tantamount to the “God works in mysterious ways” argument - because we can’t come up with a real dimension to make a claim about, we say there is something magically unique about being poor, or being asexual, or any number of things. Sorry to say, but I don’t believe in magic. There are a few dimensions poor people are more optimized along, for example, maybe grit and resiliency, and there are rough correlations along the racial boundaries as well. But until you actually talk to a person, you’ll have no idea who they are.
      - knightofmars 6y ago
        I'm extrapolating here, but effectively you're arguing that diversity initiatives don't provide any value because everyone lives a unique life?
ironmagma 6y ago
But as it's been said many times, corporations aren't democracies. (And regardless of moral value, they never will be.) The expectation that your leadership should look like you is fraught and misunderstands the whole idea of a corporation. We don't hire according to population makeup, we hire according to an arbitrary set of metrics that roughly correlate with drive to create value.
- wayoutthere 6y ago
  The expectation is societal by their participation in the political process; because the voice of the population carries far less weight than that of a large corporation, there will be strong internal pressure for the company to take a political stance on an issue. The corporations opened this Pandora’s box; if they want the workplace to be apolitical again they need to work with Congress to muzzle themselves and stay out of politics altogether. (Also those “arbitrary metrics” now largely include diversity metrics because they do actually increase profitability in the long run.)
axguscbklp 6y ago
Jewish people are significantly overrepresented in positions of power relative to their population size. Should companies treat this is a cultural homogeneity problem and try to make it so that Jewish people are represented more closely in line to their actual numbers? Or how about Asian-Americans in tech? Asian-Americans are only a tiny fraction of Americans but make up a substantial part of the tech industry. Is that a cultural homogeneity problem that companies should try to solve by working to increase the representation of people who are not Asian-American?
- wayoutthere 6y ago
  Uh, yes actually. To both. That said, this situation almost never happens beyond an individual contributor level — where diversity is already less of a problem because diverse candidates hit a glass ceiling and move no further.
  - kjjjjjjjjjjjjjj 6y ago
    >Uh, yes actually. To both. What a disgusting opinion you have. Of course the two cultures that strongly value education and success are... successful.
aantix 6y ago
The contention is whether you can accurately ascertain the experiences of any of the cohorts that you cite. Each cohort literally represents millions of people (billions if including the world). This makes the cohorts meaningless. And it's in the category of generalizations that we've been fighting. It's part of the problem, not the solution.
kjjjjjjjjjjjjjj 6y ago
Oh okay so if we are going by populations, all companies should strictly be 6.7% black and no more, right?