5 ms·

What should the next chat app look like?

13 points by als0 6y ago

approxim8ion 6y ago
XMPP ranks well on his metrics, and at least to a layperson like me, it seems to be less complex and more performant than Matrix.
- needz 6y ago
  I really hope the rust implementation of Matrix helps. I reboot my Matrix container daily because if I don't it'll quickly eat through the 12GB of memory I've allocated it. I run a 3 person instance.
  - Arathorn 6y ago
    12GB of RAM sounds like something is badly wrong; a typical small server should use a few GB at most. Most likely is that either your users have joined loads of big rooms, or some malformed broken room, and the IO can’t keep up with all the traffic it’s seeing so things are stacking up in RAM. Please come to #synapse:matrix.org so we can help debug it.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  Xmpp doesn't do server-based scroll back iirc. And other mod cons.
  - MattJ100 6y ago
    Actually it does. XMPP does a pretty good job at keeping up with "mod cons", but people often assume it has stayed the same since 2006. I'm working on https://snikket.org/ https://snikket.org/ partly to try and fix this perception. All Snikket software (server and apps) uses modern XMPP, are open-source and designed for easy self-hosting.
    - GekkePrutser 6y ago
      Thanks, I wasn't aware of that indeed. I think it's because XMPP software is not as good at keeping up with developments in general. Great idea to keep it active with your own development!
      - rakoo 6y ago
        Yes, XMPP software is active and keeping up, even leading development; you just have to follow them
GekkePrutser 6y ago
He basically describes matrix... It has its problems like other posters mention but those are really mainly implementation issues, not protocol ones. They'll get fixed.
- Qub3d 6y ago
  For some reason he decided to make the section collapsed by default, but Drew did address it: "Let's quickly address the present state of the ecosystem. Matrix rates well in most of these respects, much better than others. However, their software is way too complicated. They are federated, but the software is far from reliable or robust, so the ecosystem tends to be centralized because Matrix.org are the only ones who have the knowledge and bandwidth to keep it up and running. The performance sucks, client and server both, and their UX for E2EE is confusing and difficult to use. It's a good attempt, but too complex and brittle. Also, their bridge is a major nuisance to IRC, which biases me against them. Please don't integrate your next chat app with IRC; just leave us alone, thanks. Speaking of IRC, it is still my main chat program, and has been for 15+ years. The lack of E2EE, which is unacceptable for any new protocol, is not important enough to get me to switch to anything else until it presents a compelling alternative to IRC." I thought it was interesting that he would prefer new protocols to not bridge with IRC.
  - ragebol 6y ago
    Having it be easy to use was not one of the requirements in the original text. But of course crucial to wide-spread success. Federation where you have to enter a home-server is not simple enough so my grandmother could use it. Or non-techie friends.
  - GekkePrutser 6y ago
    Oh you're right, I didn't see that. I kinda see where he's coming from. Even when I tried to get all my chat apps merged into Matrix bridges, I still used Quassel to connect to IRC (and get some mod cons like scrollback on demand!). Matrix doesn't translate well to IRC. Joining 20-30 channels on each network just makes matrix too cluttery. At least in Element. However it depends on the kind of bridge. If you do full network integration then it's a bit annoying because not all joined users are visible on the IRC side and the bridge pops them in and out as needed. And it also causes some side effects like users that just joined being able to scroll back to conversations they were never part of! This is one of the reasons a lot of IRC networks don't allow Matrix. However, you can also do puppet bridging for personal use in which Matrix just becomes a fancy personal IRC bouncer and nobody even knows about it :) I don't think the lack of E2EE is a big issue on IRC at all. After all it is meant for wide communication with people you don't know. Anyone can join it if they want, so there is no expectation of privacy except perhaps for DMs/queries. In the same way I don't like having to deal with E2EE in public Matrix rooms.

13 points by als0 6y ago

XMPP ranks well on his metrics, and at least to a layperson like me, it seems to be less complex and more performant than Matrix.

needz 6y ago
I really hope the rust implementation of Matrix helps. I reboot my Matrix container daily because if I don't it'll quickly eat through the 12GB of memory I've allocated it. I run a 3 person instance.
- Arathorn 6y ago
  12GB of RAM sounds like something is badly wrong; a typical small server should use a few GB at most. Most likely is that either your users have joined loads of big rooms, or some malformed broken room, and the IO can’t keep up with all the traffic it’s seeing so things are stacking up in RAM. Please come to #synapse:matrix.org so we can help debug it.
GekkePrutser 6y ago
Xmpp doesn't do server-based scroll back iirc. And other mod cons.
- MattJ100 6y ago
  Actually it does. XMPP does a pretty good job at keeping up with "mod cons", but people often assume it has stayed the same since 2006. I'm working on https://snikket.org/ https://snikket.org/ partly to try and fix this perception. All Snikket software (server and apps) uses modern XMPP, are open-source and designed for easy self-hosting.
  - GekkePrutser 6y ago
    Thanks, I wasn't aware of that indeed. I think it's because XMPP software is not as good at keeping up with developments in general. Great idea to keep it active with your own development!
    - rakoo 6y ago
      Yes, XMPP software is active and keeping up, even leading development; you just have to follow them

GekkePrutser 6y ago

He basically describes matrix... It has its problems like other posters mention but those are really mainly implementation issues, not protocol ones. They'll get fixed.

Qub3d 6y ago
For some reason he decided to make the section collapsed by default, but Drew did address it: "Let's quickly address the present state of the ecosystem. Matrix rates well in most of these respects, much better than others. However, their software is way too complicated. They are federated, but the software is far from reliable or robust, so the ecosystem tends to be centralized because Matrix.org are the only ones who have the knowledge and bandwidth to keep it up and running. The performance sucks, client and server both, and their UX for E2EE is confusing and difficult to use. It's a good attempt, but too complex and brittle. Also, their bridge is a major nuisance to IRC, which biases me against them. Please don't integrate your next chat app with IRC; just leave us alone, thanks. Speaking of IRC, it is still my main chat program, and has been for 15+ years. The lack of E2EE, which is unacceptable for any new protocol, is not important enough to get me to switch to anything else until it presents a compelling alternative to IRC." I thought it was interesting that he would prefer new protocols to not bridge with IRC.
- ragebol 6y ago
  Having it be easy to use was not one of the requirements in the original text. But of course crucial to wide-spread success. Federation where you have to enter a home-server is not simple enough so my grandmother could use it. Or non-techie friends.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  Oh you're right, I didn't see that. I kinda see where he's coming from. Even when I tried to get all my chat apps merged into Matrix bridges, I still used Quassel to connect to IRC (and get some mod cons like scrollback on demand!). Matrix doesn't translate well to IRC. Joining 20-30 channels on each network just makes matrix too cluttery. At least in Element. However it depends on the kind of bridge. If you do full network integration then it's a bit annoying because not all joined users are visible on the IRC side and the bridge pops them in and out as needed. And it also causes some side effects like users that just joined being able to scroll back to conversations they were never part of! This is one of the reasons a lot of IRC networks don't allow Matrix. However, you can also do puppet bridging for personal use in which Matrix just becomes a fancy personal IRC bouncer and nobody even knows about it :) I don't think the lack of E2EE is a big issue on IRC at all. After all it is meant for wide communication with people you don't know. Anyone can join it if they want, so there is no expectation of privacy except perhaps for DMs/queries. In the same way I don't like having to deal with E2EE in public Matrix rooms.