4 ms·

>I know someone who had to show up 8 hours a day for 20 years without anything to do Well, now don't keep us in suspense! What was his job? How did he get it?

>I know someone who had to show up 8 hours a day for 20 years without anything to do Well, now don't keep us in suspense! What was his job? How did he get it? That's kinda the point of this whole thread ;-) Also, yes to your part about people being dead inside because of their job (these exist as well and there life basically ends when they retire... can be equally sad). As for the ancient Greeks, well, that's a bit like saying "Bill Gates is free from menial work". Yes, true in theory but with little to no relevance for our daily lives because his (and equally the ancient Greeks') circumstances are just so different. In case of the Greeks, their system was heavily based on slave labor. A comparable level of freedom nowadays (10+ full-time domestic staff plus people who dress you and carry you around in a litter) requires you to be a multi-millionaire and at least slightly deranged ;-) Also, it's not like they did nothing all day. Studying, philosophy, military and political careers were incredibly important in ancient Rome and Greece, and I am certain that many an aristocratic young man would rather have spent time in the bath houses or on the forum than practising Greek declensions with his "Paedagogi" (teacher slaves) ;-) The next time we (all) might have a chance to get close to ancient levels of "dolce far niente" for a majority of people, is probably in a post-scarcity society with fully autonomous robot assistants (if they don't murder us first). Sure would be nice to focus on wine and philosophy all day, no doubt about it.

RGamma 6y ago
> Well, now don't keep us in suspense! What was his job? How did he get it? Abridged version: ~1970s Germany, vocational training as welder, employed at Hoesch (later ThyssenKrupp), well-paid factory job. He later lost his position due to automation, became depressed and was placed into a "Sozialbetrieb" (this can mean many things. In this case it's a workshop meant for the disabled to ensure means to participate in the workforce. Big firms like ThyssenKrupp have to have such an offering by law). Well turns out, there wasn't all that much to do there so he could listen to the radio and nap or the like (thanks social democrats). Today he's getting a pretty good pension (unfairly one might say, especially in the face of Germany's pressured pension system). His situation is definitely an anomaly even in sort-of socio-economically egalitarian Germany, but he's thriving :) Note: He's a very different sort of person than I am or the typical HN user presumably is. > The next time we (all) might have a chance to get close to ancient levels of "dolce far niente" for a majority of people, is probably in a post-scarcity society with fully autonomous robot assistants There's plenty of nuance in the space between mass-precarity and mass-decadence. It's a question of societal will and organisation to enable common guaranteed standards of living (I know this is heresy in the US). It's definitely possible already, though it may come with its own set of problems regarding e.g. fair distribution of welfare or disincentivising self-improvement to some degree, that may have to be kept in check via other means. In modern times essentially all of the important battles that kept humanity in the dirt have been won (think antibiotics, fertilizer, energy, machinery, communication, logistics). Everything that comes now is restrained not by lack of knowledge or technology but by human psychology, behavior, politics and social dynamics.
- samsquire 6y ago
  In other words, the reason we cannot have nice things (universal basic income) is because people stand in the way of progress.

RGamma 6y ago

> Well, now don't keep us in suspense! What was his job? How did he get it? Abridged version: ~1970s Germany, vocational training as welder, employed at Hoesch (later ThyssenKrupp), well-paid factory job. He later lost his position due to automation, became depressed and was placed into a "Sozialbetrieb" (this can mean many things. In this case it's a workshop meant for the disabled to ensure means to participate in the workforce. Big firms like ThyssenKrupp have to have such an offering by law). Well turns out, there wasn't all that much to do there so he could listen to the radio and nap or the like (thanks social democrats). Today he's getting a pretty good pension (unfairly one might say, especially in the face of Germany's pressured pension system). His situation is definitely an anomaly even in sort-of socio-economically egalitarian Germany, but he's thriving :) Note: He's a very different sort of person than I am or the typical HN user presumably is. > The next time we (all) might have a chance to get close to ancient levels of "dolce far niente" for a majority of people, is probably in a post-scarcity society with fully autonomous robot assistants There's plenty of nuance in the space between mass-precarity and mass-decadence. It's a question of societal will and organisation to enable common guaranteed standards of living (I know this is heresy in the US). It's definitely possible already, though it may come with its own set of problems regarding e.g. fair distribution of welfare or disincentivising self-improvement to some degree, that may have to be kept in check via other means. In modern times essentially all of the important battles that kept humanity in the dirt have been won (think antibiotics, fertilizer, energy, machinery, communication, logistics). Everything that comes now is restrained not by lack of knowledge or technology but by human psychology, behavior, politics and social dynamics.

samsquire 6y ago
In other words, the reason we cannot have nice things (universal basic income) is because people stand in the way of progress.