5 ms·

Documentation was last updated in September, 2019

brudgers 6y ago
Stable software doesn't require modification. If a tool is intended to do one thing well, then it won't be constantly getting features. Or to put it another way, users have just been able to use it for almost two years without time spent upgrading to the latest release. Quicksort is still a useful algorithm after nearly sixty years. Merge sort after almost eighty.
- zekrioca 6y ago
  Sure, I agree. However, it is also a sign that no new features nor capabilities have been added. > Quicksort is still a useful algorithm after nearly sixty years. Merge sort after almost eighty. I am not sure specific algorithms really compare to a whole suit of algorithms and libraries (i.e., a tool) composing very specific versions of a software like GNU lightning, but sure, both Quicksort and Mergesort are useful since their inception. Try installing Windows 3.1 (don't use VMs please) on your current computer and see if we can really live without updating things.. But I'd argue that if we follow your idea, we can say that the democratic concept is also useful since the 18th century. And still, it has to adapt throughout time and be somehow updated (e.g. allowing women and black people to vote or freely use public spaces like toilets and elevators).
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- 1vuio0pswjnm7 6y ago
  Love this comment.
- vinceguidry 6y ago
  There's an algorithm and then there's it's implementation. So much more goes into implementation. That said, September 2019 is much much better than a lot of software I use.
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- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  I like the GNU lightning project, but I wouldn't say it's so stable it doesn't need updating. Disassembly doesn't work properly on Ubuntu, which strikes me as a pretty serious problem, but which unfortunately they seem to be in no hurry to fix. [0] I think they'd do well to adopt a proper bug-tracker. Mailing lists are a good way to lose track of known issues. [0] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lightning/2020-06/msg00005.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lightning/2020-06/msg0000...
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  - brudgers 6y ago
    If it doesn’t work on Ubuntu that seems like a fault with Ubuntu. That’s where the breaking change is.
    - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
      I don't think the fault is with Ubuntu. configure scripts are responsible for coping with variations between different distros. lightning's configure script fails to accommodate the way Ubuntu installs the binutils-dev package. It works ok with (Red Hat based) Amazon Linux 2 on x86-64. It failed on Amazon Linux 2 on AArch64 though, with a seemingly unrelated issue, which was the second bug I reported. I don't have the specifics to hand. I also don't know autotools, so I'm not well positioned to write a fix.
      - brudgers 6y ago
        Technically, the configure script is responsible in a non-ethical/moral sense. In terms of *nix spirit, it sounds like Ubuntu is not being generous in what it accepts.
        MaxBarraclough 6y ago
        > Technically, the configure script is responsible in a non-ethical/moral sense. I don't follow. Part of the role of a configure script is to accommodate the variations between distributions. If a configure script fails to work with a major distro, that generally means the configure script needs fixing. I don't see that ethics have anything to do with it. > In terms of *nix spirit, it sounds like Ubuntu is not being generous in what it accepts. Ubuntu likely isn't actively doing anything in the process here, it probably isn't in a position to accept or reject anything. Ubuntu presumably places certain files in places the configure script fails to check. This kind of variation between distros is annoying, but typical, and again it's part of the reason we use configure scripts in the first place. (Or modern alternatives like CMake.) If the issue turns out to be that Ubuntu has an issue with pkg-config (a package-discovery system with distro integration) failing to find binutils, then yes, the onus would be on Ubuntu to fix it. I don't think that's the case here though.
- lifthrasiir 6y ago
  > Quicksort is still a useful algorithm after nearly sixty years. Merge sort after almost eighty. No one uses Quicksort as Hoare originally proposed (modern variants include 3-way quicksort and pattern-defeating quicksort), as much as merge sort as von Neumann originally proposed (modern variants include adaptive merge sort and Timsort). Both were tremendously updated to keep up with the ever-changing computer architecture and requirements.

Stable software doesn't require modification. If a tool is intended to do one thing well, then it won't be constantly getting features. Or to put it another way, users have just been able to use it for almost two years without time spent upgrading to the latest release. Quicksort is still a useful algorithm after nearly sixty years. Merge sort after almost eighty.

zekrioca 6y ago
Sure, I agree. However, it is also a sign that no new features nor capabilities have been added. > Quicksort is still a useful algorithm after nearly sixty years. Merge sort after almost eighty. I am not sure specific algorithms really compare to a whole suit of algorithms and libraries (i.e., a tool) composing very specific versions of a software like GNU lightning, but sure, both Quicksort and Mergesort are useful since their inception. Try installing Windows 3.1 (don't use VMs please) on your current computer and see if we can really live without updating things.. But I'd argue that if we follow your idea, we can say that the democratic concept is also useful since the 18th century. And still, it has to adapt throughout time and be somehow updated (e.g. allowing women and black people to vote or freely use public spaces like toilets and elevators).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
1vuio0pswjnm7 6y ago
Love this comment.
vinceguidry 6y ago
There's an algorithm and then there's it's implementation. So much more goes into implementation. That said, September 2019 is much much better than a lot of software I use.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
I like the GNU lightning project, but I wouldn't say it's so stable it doesn't need updating. Disassembly doesn't work properly on Ubuntu, which strikes me as a pretty serious problem, but which unfortunately they seem to be in no hurry to fix. [0] I think they'd do well to adopt a proper bug-tracker. Mailing lists are a good way to lose track of known issues. [0] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lightning/2020-06/msg00005.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lightning/2020-06/msg0000...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- brudgers 6y ago
  If it doesn’t work on Ubuntu that seems like a fault with Ubuntu. That’s where the breaking change is.
  - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
    I don't think the fault is with Ubuntu. configure scripts are responsible for coping with variations between different distros. lightning's configure script fails to accommodate the way Ubuntu installs the binutils-dev package. It works ok with (Red Hat based) Amazon Linux 2 on x86-64. It failed on Amazon Linux 2 on AArch64 though, with a seemingly unrelated issue, which was the second bug I reported. I don't have the specifics to hand. I also don't know autotools, so I'm not well positioned to write a fix.
    - brudgers 6y ago
      Technically, the configure script is responsible in a non-ethical/moral sense. In terms of *nix spirit, it sounds like Ubuntu is not being generous in what it accepts.
      - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
        > Technically, the configure script is responsible in a non-ethical/moral sense. I don't follow. Part of the role of a configure script is to accommodate the variations between distributions. If a configure script fails to work with a major distro, that generally means the configure script needs fixing. I don't see that ethics have anything to do with it. > In terms of *nix spirit, it sounds like Ubuntu is not being generous in what it accepts. Ubuntu likely isn't actively doing anything in the process here, it probably isn't in a position to accept or reject anything. Ubuntu presumably places certain files in places the configure script fails to check. This kind of variation between distros is annoying, but typical, and again it's part of the reason we use configure scripts in the first place. (Or modern alternatives like CMake.) If the issue turns out to be that Ubuntu has an issue with pkg-config (a package-discovery system with distro integration) failing to find binutils, then yes, the onus would be on Ubuntu to fix it. I don't think that's the case here though.
lifthrasiir 6y ago
> Quicksort is still a useful algorithm after nearly sixty years. Merge sort after almost eighty. No one uses Quicksort as Hoare originally proposed (modern variants include 3-way quicksort and pattern-defeating quicksort), as much as merge sort as von Neumann originally proposed (modern variants include adaptive merge sort and Timsort). Both were tremendously updated to keep up with the ever-changing computer architecture and requirements.