5 ms·

A critique of "A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS": the author claims that Stallman's transphobia is down to Stallman proposing a set

by Zanni 6y ago

A critique of "A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS": the author claims that Stallman's transphobia is down to Stallman proposing a set of singular, gender-neutral pronouns other than 'they', 'their' and theirs'. Which Stallman indeed does, but if you read on, Stallman also says he'll flat out refuse to use someone's preferred pronouns if they disagree with his scheme. To overlook that in a critique of a critique is a massive oversight at best, it not outright disingenuous.

outsomnia 6y ago
... and what's actually the problem with that stance that justifies what is being done to Stallman? It should be OK with everyone to be referred to by name and the set of generic English words that can be applied to anyone.
- dpatterbee 6y ago
  The problem is that gender is a complicated social issue and not every transgender person wants to be thrown into an "other" category with their pronouns. Given how simple it is to use someone's preferred pronouns once they've been made clear to you, I don't see how it's a problem to do so.
  - insert_coin 6y ago
    This problem was created by trying to force people to say specific words. You try to force RMS to say some words? guess what, he will now try to force his words onto you. You don't agree? neither does he, great, just great. There is no difference here. It is no more valid for you to force language on others than it is for him to try and do it.
    - dpatterbee 6y ago
      Do you call people by their names? Seems like you're already forced to call people what they want you to. I believe there's a difference between asking people to refer to you by some identifier and whatever nonsense you're equating it to.
      - insert_coin 6y ago
        You are not forced to call anyone anything. You have no right to compel anyone to say anything. You can ask, that's about it. They can say no.
        dpatterbee 6y ago
        And they can be considered an asshole and asked to not continue their role as a leading representative of a diverse community of people.
        insert_coin 6y ago
        Of course! And the people "asking" can also be considered assholes.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > You try to force RMS to say some words? You mean like “GNU/Linux”? It's really not a big leap from RMS’s thinking he gets to name other people’s things without their consent (and insist that other people folloq his preference) to his thinking he gets to name other people without their consent, and its truly backwards to think that either of those stems from people trying to “force” anything on Stallman.
      - insert_coin 6y ago
        So, you realize that RMS is wrong on the GNU/Linux thing and somehow are still on the side of forcing pronouns?
        dpatterbee 6y ago
        It blows my mind that you think that people wishing to be referred to in a certain way that has absolutely 0 negative effects on you or anyone else is somehow a bad thing which you need to argue against so much.
        insert_coin 6y ago
        They can wish it all they want. They cannot force it. What should blow your mind is people mounting huge campaigns to completely cancel someone and then when unable to really defend their positions having the guts to say "it isn't really an issue, it has 0 impact!" It either is an issue and worthy of ruining someone's life or it isn't. Either simply "feeling" discriminated against is the bar or it isn't. Some people feel bullied when forced to speak a certain way, shouldn't others also be forced to accommodate their feelings? You can't have it both ways.
        nec4b 6y ago
        They are demanding not wishing.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        > So, you realize that RMS is wrong on the GNU/Linux thing and somehow are still on the side of forcing pronouns? No, I recognize that RMS is wrong on trying to impose his choice of names as designators of other people’s work, and also recognize that he is wrong, for pretty much the exact same reason though with more significance, to impose his choice of pronouns as designators of other people’s persons.
  - gnomewascool 6y ago
    RMS's stance is that "they" is not a grammatically valid singular pronoun, so he'll not use it. If somebody told you that their preferred pronoun was "we", I doubt you'd use it. > not every transgender person wants to be thrown into an "other" category with their pronouns RMS's pronoun "perse" is gender-neutral (not non-gender). The stance is IMO crazy, but he does have a point that using "they" as both singular and plural introduces ambiguity.
    - dpatterbee 6y ago
      It does introduce ambiguity in certain sentences, but pronouns already do that and we don't have much issue using them. The solution is to just not use the pronoun if it's ambiguous, pronouns are just a convenience.
- KingOfCoders 6y ago
  Can he have this private opinion? Yes sure, I would just avoid him. Can he be in a leadership role and organize conferences? No.
  - evmt 6y ago
    >Can he be in a leadership role and organize conferences? No. Conferences on gender studies? Maybe. Conferences on software and IT? Why not?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Ardren 6y ago
RMS' entire post about gender pronouns is weird [1] > There are those who claim that we have an obligation to refer to someone using whatever pronouns person might choose. I disagree with that position, on grounds of principle and grounds of practice. I think we should respect other people's gender identification, but which pronouns we use for any particular gender identification is a separate matter — a matter of grammar. We do not owe it to anyone to change our grammar according to per wishes. That's four lines after, saying we should all switch to his personal favourite pronouns: > Use the elegant gender-neutral pronouns "person", "per" and "pers". I'd be interested to her when RSM would not use someone's preferred pronoun and instead call them a 'perse'? 1: https://www.stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html https://www.stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html
- tremon 6y ago
  I don't see the weirdness. I see two statements: - A person may choose which pronouns apply to themselves (on grounds of principle) - A person must not dictate which pronouns apply to a whole gender (on grounds of practice) I'd be interested to [hear] when [RMS] would not use someone's preferred pronoun and instead call them a 'perse'? Presumably, when the pronoun preference of the person isn't known to the speaker?
enriquto 6y ago
> if you read on, Stallman also says he'll flat out refuse to use someone's preferred pronouns if they disagree with his scheme. This is false: RMS does not refuse to use someone's preferred pronouns (as explained by a trans person who worked with him and who thinks that RMS' proposal is stupid but not transphobic). He just proposes people to use his pronouns, but will use whatever is asked to.

by Zanni 6y ago

outsomnia 6y ago

... and what's actually the problem with that stance that justifies what is being done to Stallman? It should be OK with everyone to be referred to by name and the set of generic English words that can be applied to anyone.

dpatterbee 6y ago
The problem is that gender is a complicated social issue and not every transgender person wants to be thrown into an "other" category with their pronouns. Given how simple it is to use someone's preferred pronouns once they've been made clear to you, I don't see how it's a problem to do so.
- insert_coin 6y ago
  This problem was created by trying to force people to say specific words. You try to force RMS to say some words? guess what, he will now try to force his words onto you. You don't agree? neither does he, great, just great. There is no difference here. It is no more valid for you to force language on others than it is for him to try and do it.
  - dpatterbee 6y ago
    Do you call people by their names? Seems like you're already forced to call people what they want you to. I believe there's a difference between asking people to refer to you by some identifier and whatever nonsense you're equating it to.
    - insert_coin 6y ago
      You are not forced to call anyone anything. You have no right to compel anyone to say anything. You can ask, that's about it. They can say no.
      - dpatterbee 6y ago
        And they can be considered an asshole and asked to not continue their role as a leading representative of a diverse community of people.
        insert_coin 6y ago
        Of course! And the people "asking" can also be considered assholes.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > You try to force RMS to say some words? You mean like “GNU/Linux”? It's really not a big leap from RMS’s thinking he gets to name other people’s things without their consent (and insist that other people folloq his preference) to his thinking he gets to name other people without their consent, and its truly backwards to think that either of those stems from people trying to “force” anything on Stallman.
    - insert_coin 6y ago
      So, you realize that RMS is wrong on the GNU/Linux thing and somehow are still on the side of forcing pronouns?
      - dpatterbee 6y ago
        It blows my mind that you think that people wishing to be referred to in a certain way that has absolutely 0 negative effects on you or anyone else is somehow a bad thing which you need to argue against so much.
        insert_coin 6y ago
        They can wish it all they want. They cannot force it. What should blow your mind is people mounting huge campaigns to completely cancel someone and then when unable to really defend their positions having the guts to say "it isn't really an issue, it has 0 impact!" It either is an issue and worthy of ruining someone's life or it isn't. Either simply "feeling" discriminated against is the bar or it isn't. Some people feel bullied when forced to speak a certain way, shouldn't others also be forced to accommodate their feelings? You can't have it both ways.
        nec4b 6y ago
        They are demanding not wishing.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > So, you realize that RMS is wrong on the GNU/Linux thing and somehow are still on the side of forcing pronouns? No, I recognize that RMS is wrong on trying to impose his choice of names as designators of other people’s work, and also recognize that he is wrong, for pretty much the exact same reason though with more significance, to impose his choice of pronouns as designators of other people’s persons.
- gnomewascool 6y ago
  RMS's stance is that "they" is not a grammatically valid singular pronoun, so he'll not use it. If somebody told you that their preferred pronoun was "we", I doubt you'd use it. > not every transgender person wants to be thrown into an "other" category with their pronouns RMS's pronoun "perse" is gender-neutral (not non-gender). The stance is IMO crazy, but he does have a point that using "they" as both singular and plural introduces ambiguity.
  - dpatterbee 6y ago
    It does introduce ambiguity in certain sentences, but pronouns already do that and we don't have much issue using them. The solution is to just not use the pronoun if it's ambiguous, pronouns are just a convenience.
KingOfCoders 6y ago
Can he have this private opinion? Yes sure, I would just avoid him. Can he be in a leadership role and organize conferences? No.
- evmt 6y ago
  >Can he be in a leadership role and organize conferences? No. Conferences on gender studies? Maybe. Conferences on software and IT? Why not?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Ardren 6y ago

RMS' entire post about gender pronouns is weird [1] > There are those who claim that we have an obligation to refer to someone using whatever pronouns person might choose. I disagree with that position, on grounds of principle and grounds of practice. I think we should respect other people's gender identification, but which pronouns we use for any particular gender identification is a separate matter — a matter of grammar. We do not owe it to anyone to change our grammar according to per wishes. That's four lines after, saying we should all switch to his personal favourite pronouns: > Use the elegant gender-neutral pronouns "person", "per" and "pers". I'd be interested to her when RSM would not use someone's preferred pronoun and instead call them a 'perse'? 1: https://www.stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html https://www.stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html

tremon 6y ago
I don't see the weirdness. I see two statements: - A person may choose which pronouns apply to themselves (on grounds of principle) - A person must not dictate which pronouns apply to a whole gender (on grounds of practice) I'd be interested to [hear] when [RMS] would not use someone's preferred pronoun and instead call them a 'perse'? Presumably, when the pronoun preference of the person isn't known to the speaker?

enriquto 6y ago

> if you read on, Stallman also says he'll flat out refuse to use someone's preferred pronouns if they disagree with his scheme. This is false: RMS does not refuse to use someone's preferred pronouns (as explained by a trans person who worked with him and who thinks that RMS' proposal is stupid but not transphobic). He just proposes people to use his pronouns, but will use whatever is asked to.