4 ms·

Flatter and heterogeneous hierarchies and more equal distribution of power. Corruption requires hierarchy, and may well be that hierarchy requires corruption.

ewindal 6y ago
> and may well be that hierarchy requires corruption. Literally 20 seconds of reflection is enough to see how wrong that is...
Gupie 6y ago
Interesting point. Is there any country that has system tending towards this?
- jampekka 6y ago
  E.g. the increase of parlamentarism at the expense of monarchies or other strong heads of state may be a long trend towards this. But I don't think it's a given that such trend necessarily continues. For example kings used to be voted in many parts of the world until 10th century or so, but there was a strong move towards hereditary or other non-elected monarchy afterwards. Similar ebb and flow were seen in e.g. ancient Greece. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchy
adwn 6y ago
> Corruption requires hierarchy, and may well be that hierarchy requires corruption. I don't think this is true at all. For example, if a policeman A catches county clerk B speeding, B could bribe A to forget about that ticket. That would be corruption, but A and B are not in any hierarchy relation to each other. True, they're in a temporary power relation, but a day later this power relation could well be reversed when B decides whether or not to approve A's building permit for his new house.
- jampekka 6y ago
  If authority holder A's actions affect authority holder B's decisions on A's that's more or less corruption in my books. And probably something that happens everyday, even literally the in the case that you describe. If A forgets the ticket and B approves the building permit because of it, this is corruption. A and B may benefit, but society at large doesn't.
  - adwn 6y ago
    > If A forgets the ticket and B approves the building permit because of it, this is corruption. That's not what I meant, there's no quid pro quo in my example. My point was that neither A nor B are above or below each other in a hierarchy, and there's no permanent power imbalance between them, and yet they could both be corrupt. Corruption doesn't require a hierarchy, and a flat hierarchy doesn't prevent corruption.
    - jampekka 6y ago
      Both A and B have hierarchy given authorities. That A can fine and B can issue permits both stem from a hierarchical system. Perhaps more exact is to say that corruption requires authority. Flatter hierarchy does not prevent corruption totally, probably nothing will. But it will make corruption harder and more expensive. Some hierarchies, at least context dependent, are probably inevitable. It's a matter of scale.
      - adwn 6y ago
        > Perhaps more exact is to say that corruption requires authority. Yes, that would be more correct. Authority != hierarchy, but you can't have a society without authority. You could start out with anarchy, but then authoritative structures would naturally emerge anyway.
        jampekka 6y ago
        Anarchistic views accept hierarchies and some sorts of authority, but these should be based on voluntary association (as far as possible) and only temporary and to serve some concrete purpose.
- chriswarbo 6y ago
  > For example, if a policeman A catches county clerk B speeding, B could bribe A to forget about that ticket. That would be corruption, but A and B are not in any hierarchy relation to each other. This example only works if there is a hierarchy: - Policeman A wouldn't take the bribe, unless it's big enough relative to his wealth - Clerk B wouldn't offer the bribe, unless it's small enough relative to his wealth There is an economic hierarchy implicit in the example. The consequences of the ticket are also important, since there's no point spending more on a bribe than would have to be paid in fines.
kryogen1c 6y ago
> Corruption requires hierarchy, and may well be that hierarchy requires corruption. this is total nonsense. hierarchys are in no way tied to corruption, except that EVERYTHING requires a hierarchy, unless youre a nihilist. to value is to rank order and create a hierarchy. valuation doesnt generate corruption.

ewindal 6y ago

> and may well be that hierarchy requires corruption. Literally 20 seconds of reflection is enough to see how wrong that is...

Gupie 6y ago

Interesting point. Is there any country that has system tending towards this?

jampekka 6y ago
E.g. the increase of parlamentarism at the expense of monarchies or other strong heads of state may be a long trend towards this. But I don't think it's a given that such trend necessarily continues. For example kings used to be voted in many parts of the world until 10th century or so, but there was a strong move towards hereditary or other non-elected monarchy afterwards. Similar ebb and flow were seen in e.g. ancient Greece. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchy

adwn 6y ago

> Corruption requires hierarchy, and may well be that hierarchy requires corruption. I don't think this is true at all. For example, if a policeman A catches county clerk B speeding, B could bribe A to forget about that ticket. That would be corruption, but A and B are not in any hierarchy relation to each other. True, they're in a temporary power relation, but a day later this power relation could well be reversed when B decides whether or not to approve A's building permit for his new house.

jampekka 6y ago
If authority holder A's actions affect authority holder B's decisions on A's that's more or less corruption in my books. And probably something that happens everyday, even literally the in the case that you describe. If A forgets the ticket and B approves the building permit because of it, this is corruption. A and B may benefit, but society at large doesn't.
- adwn 6y ago
  > If A forgets the ticket and B approves the building permit because of it, this is corruption. That's not what I meant, there's no quid pro quo in my example. My point was that neither A nor B are above or below each other in a hierarchy, and there's no permanent power imbalance between them, and yet they could both be corrupt. Corruption doesn't require a hierarchy, and a flat hierarchy doesn't prevent corruption.
  - jampekka 6y ago
    Both A and B have hierarchy given authorities. That A can fine and B can issue permits both stem from a hierarchical system. Perhaps more exact is to say that corruption requires authority. Flatter hierarchy does not prevent corruption totally, probably nothing will. But it will make corruption harder and more expensive. Some hierarchies, at least context dependent, are probably inevitable. It's a matter of scale.
    - adwn 6y ago
      > Perhaps more exact is to say that corruption requires authority. Yes, that would be more correct. Authority != hierarchy, but you can't have a society without authority. You could start out with anarchy, but then authoritative structures would naturally emerge anyway.
      - jampekka 6y ago
        Anarchistic views accept hierarchies and some sorts of authority, but these should be based on voluntary association (as far as possible) and only temporary and to serve some concrete purpose.
chriswarbo 6y ago
> For example, if a policeman A catches county clerk B speeding, B could bribe A to forget about that ticket. That would be corruption, but A and B are not in any hierarchy relation to each other. This example only works if there is a hierarchy: - Policeman A wouldn't take the bribe, unless it's big enough relative to his wealth - Clerk B wouldn't offer the bribe, unless it's small enough relative to his wealth There is an economic hierarchy implicit in the example. The consequences of the ticket are also important, since there's no point spending more on a bribe than would have to be paid in fines.

kryogen1c 6y ago

> Corruption requires hierarchy, and may well be that hierarchy requires corruption. this is total nonsense. hierarchys are in no way tied to corruption, except that EVERYTHING requires a hierarchy, unless youre a nihilist. to value is to rank order and create a hierarchy. valuation doesnt generate corruption.