5 ms·

This article is unimaginably bleak. Fascinating, morbid, and just plain gruesome. I wonder how long until descendants of ours look back on our existence with si

This article is unimaginably bleak. Fascinating, morbid, and just plain gruesome. I wonder how long until descendants of ours look back on our existence with similar gut-wrenching sensations of "that's...evil" .

smcl 6y ago
The image of thousands of penguins every day being rendered into oil makes me deeply sad, and I've no idea why it affects me more than the other animals we raise as livestock. It's not just that they're cute - since cows are IMO quite adorable - I cannot put my finger on it.
- jimmyed 6y ago
  There's no other reason than the fact that abusing cows is widespread. When everyone does it, it becomes normalised.
- azalemeth 6y ago
  The other thing I don't entirely get -- and I am not entirely sure I want to know -- is why penguins. The article highlights that they're a bad "oil" animal. Rendering livestock remains down is not a new idea and is something that would have been done industrially on land at the time of this expedition. I am a lifelong vegetarian, but I am not sure that my partner would let me get away with going totally vegan. Things like this make me want to: at least plants don't have a central nervous system and the ability to feel pain or fear. They're also far more energy efficient as a food and fuel source. I feel like I need cheering up after reading this article!
  - EdwardDiego 6y ago
    Why penguins? Because they were there, in large numbers. And were fatty, as are many sub-Antarctic warm blooded animals. That's... about it.
  - Ichthypresbyter 6y ago
    >The other thing I don't entirely get -- and I am not entirely sure I want to know -- is why penguins. The article highlights that they're a bad "oil" animal. Because they're so easy to catch. Also,the advantage (from a purely economic, not moral or ecological, point of view) of using wild marine animals for this is that you don't have to grow fodder for them or even set aside land for grazing. Penguin eggs are still eaten in the Falkland Islands, though AFAIK commercial harvesting is illegal. Apparently the white remains translucent even when hard-boiled.
  - PlatonicSkittle 6y ago
    You should go vegan. As a lifelong vegetarian, it will be easier than you think, since you're already used to resisting the temptation of foods with animal ingredients. While it's easy to imagine that dairy and egg industries don't require killing animals, they're only economically viable if they do kill animals. As for cheering up, remember that being vegetarian and vegan does make a large difference at the individual level, not just at a collective level. Every chicken you don't eat is practically a full animal that didn't have to suffer. The animal agriculture industry does react to demand, and on average, you're individual effect is at least equal to the animals you would otherwise consume.
    - brnt 6y ago
      I'd like to argue that while you are right for supermarket meat and animal products, you might try having a look around your village, if you live near/in one. I buy eggs from a guy in town who runs a chicken coop next the village pond, which I am free to observe/feed, and can be certain no chickens are killed in the process of producing those eggs.
      - PlatonicSkittle 6y ago
        I don't want to get into a long debate, but even backyard chickens often have problems. For one, while the chickens aren't abused while they lay eggs, are they killed when they stop laying eggs regularly, after about 2 years? Chickens live for up to 12 years, but only lay eggs regularly for around 2 to 4. It's possible they are raised for their full lifespan, but it's something to ask about, nonetheless. Second, roughly for every laying hen purchased, there was a male chick that had no economic value, so it was killed shortly after it was sexed. This is done by hen breeders and is outside the control of those who actually keep the hens, short of not buying the hens in the first place.
        Robotbeat 6y ago
        Well that’s interesting to know. I think it is possible to do backyard chickens for eggs ethically, then. Just get an equal number of male and female chickens (gotta keep the females separate when still laying?) and keep them as pets long after they’re done laying. Eggs as a delicacy rather than as a major part of the diet.
  - michael1999 6y ago
    They were already there, and had exterminated the walrus and seal. Who knows what they would have done after running out of penguins.
- rozab 6y ago
  Penguins are alien, we think of them as living in the last places untouched by civilisation. They feel like the opposite of a domestic animal.
  - toomanybeersies 6y ago
    I know Australia is relatively remote, but it's a bit uncharitable to say we're untouched by civilisation!
- entropi 6y ago
  I thought about this too. The explanation I've reached is that when it comes to livestock, there is a certain amount of.. respect? going into the process. We are raising and exploiting cattle for thousands of years now, and every part of an animal is either directly consumed or used in other ways. Many cultures have elaborate rituals surrounding the slaughter, etc. This, I think, gives the impression of value to us. But for these penguins, there is no respect (still not sure if this is the best word) to speak of. You just cut them into pieces and boil thousands of them in a steampot, then discard most of it. The oil you get is in small quantities and is not even of high quality. The animal is treated as a thing to be used up, without any value.
  - cpwright 6y ago
    I don't know that there is respect for the cow; but the cow is an asset that you've paid for. You don't want to waste the cow, because it cost you money either to buy or raise. The wild penguins cost you nothing, so wasting them has no impact on you. Wild Bison were not used responsibly either.
  - smcl 6y ago
    You are right this definitely reflects some of the feelings I have bouncing around in my head. I agree "respect" isn't the right word but I wouldn't be able to come up with a better word myself.
- PlatonicSkittle 6y ago
  Hypothesis: You don't actually care about the penguins any more than you care about the cows. However, you've just read something that was intentionally designed to make you feel sad for penguins. If you'd read a piece similarly designed to make you feel bad for cows, you'd have a similar experience. For example, most people have a very negative reaction to slaughterhouse footage and videos of cows being abused by frustrated workers. But in a day or two, you won't care about either. That's not to say what was done to the penguins and what is done to cows isn't truely horrible. Just that human emotional responses to widespread atrocities are surprisingly fleeting, and those emotional responses don't reliabily indicate moral objection and can't be relied upon to bring change.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  I feel it's fairly straightforward - we've been eating animals since caveman times, and it's (or was) a necessity of life. Many cultures have various rituals around killing the animal, making sure it's painless (that's what halal was for it's time), thanking god for the bounty or whatever. Obvious modern context is different, but still. Oil is 'food' for machines, and it certainly doesn't need to come from live creatures. To steam alive penguins by the thousands to produce measly 400g of oil, while wasting the rest of the carcass - that's barbaric. This whole process has simultaneously Nazi and Matrix vibes to it.
somedude895 6y ago
If you look at how sausages are made I think it won't be long until that happens: "We used to kill animals, grind their bodies into a paste and then stuff that paste back into their own bowels." Sounds pretty gnarly when you put it that way.
- eightails 6y ago
  Or honestly this can apply to much of the commercial meat industry. It usually isn't pretty.
  - brnt 6y ago
    Industrial meat to be more precise. I've pretty much stopped buying meat from supermarkets, and buy from a local farmer who does his own butching. Funny thing is, it's not even more expensive. No middlemen!
    - wombat-man 6y ago
      That's kind of hard to do in the US, or at least it was when The Omnivore's Dilemma was written. The author visits a really great farm, but the farmer still had to send out cows and pigs somewhere else to get butchered due to laws about what slaughterhouse facilities need to have. Totally ok to butcher your own chickens though.
- sneak 6y ago
  Most animal-derived products sound pretty gnarly when you consider them somewhat dispassionately, even the ones that don't harm the animal by default: cheese is an opaque pregnant cow nipple fluid, curdled into solid chunks with intestinal enzymes, strained and squished, and tossed in a cave for a bit to get the mold and bacteria goin'. Best served drizzled with bee vomit.
  - Robotbeat 6y ago
    That still sounds good to me, actually! :) I like the idea of animal products as a delicacy with the animals treated kindly the whole time, as pets.
toomanybeersies 6y ago
Industrial chicken production (I'm hesitant to call it farming) isn't any better. It's still common practice to cull male chicks using a grinder. It's arguably the most humane method; alternative methods include gassing with CO2, smothering them in plastic bags, or breaking their necks. Definitely morbid and gruesome, regardless.

smcl 6y ago

The image of thousands of penguins every day being rendered into oil makes me deeply sad, and I've no idea why it affects me more than the other animals we raise as livestock. It's not just that they're cute - since cows are IMO quite adorable - I cannot put my finger on it.

jimmyed 6y ago
There's no other reason than the fact that abusing cows is widespread. When everyone does it, it becomes normalised.
azalemeth 6y ago
The other thing I don't entirely get -- and I am not entirely sure I want to know -- is why penguins. The article highlights that they're a bad "oil" animal. Rendering livestock remains down is not a new idea and is something that would have been done industrially on land at the time of this expedition. I am a lifelong vegetarian, but I am not sure that my partner would let me get away with going totally vegan. Things like this make me want to: at least plants don't have a central nervous system and the ability to feel pain or fear. They're also far more energy efficient as a food and fuel source. I feel like I need cheering up after reading this article!
- EdwardDiego 6y ago
  Why penguins? Because they were there, in large numbers. And were fatty, as are many sub-Antarctic warm blooded animals. That's... about it.
- Ichthypresbyter 6y ago
  >The other thing I don't entirely get -- and I am not entirely sure I want to know -- is why penguins. The article highlights that they're a bad "oil" animal. Because they're so easy to catch. Also,the advantage (from a purely economic, not moral or ecological, point of view) of using wild marine animals for this is that you don't have to grow fodder for them or even set aside land for grazing. Penguin eggs are still eaten in the Falkland Islands, though AFAIK commercial harvesting is illegal. Apparently the white remains translucent even when hard-boiled.
- PlatonicSkittle 6y ago
  You should go vegan. As a lifelong vegetarian, it will be easier than you think, since you're already used to resisting the temptation of foods with animal ingredients. While it's easy to imagine that dairy and egg industries don't require killing animals, they're only economically viable if they do kill animals. As for cheering up, remember that being vegetarian and vegan does make a large difference at the individual level, not just at a collective level. Every chicken you don't eat is practically a full animal that didn't have to suffer. The animal agriculture industry does react to demand, and on average, you're individual effect is at least equal to the animals you would otherwise consume.
  - brnt 6y ago
    I'd like to argue that while you are right for supermarket meat and animal products, you might try having a look around your village, if you live near/in one. I buy eggs from a guy in town who runs a chicken coop next the village pond, which I am free to observe/feed, and can be certain no chickens are killed in the process of producing those eggs.
    - PlatonicSkittle 6y ago
      I don't want to get into a long debate, but even backyard chickens often have problems. For one, while the chickens aren't abused while they lay eggs, are they killed when they stop laying eggs regularly, after about 2 years? Chickens live for up to 12 years, but only lay eggs regularly for around 2 to 4. It's possible they are raised for their full lifespan, but it's something to ask about, nonetheless. Second, roughly for every laying hen purchased, there was a male chick that had no economic value, so it was killed shortly after it was sexed. This is done by hen breeders and is outside the control of those who actually keep the hens, short of not buying the hens in the first place.
      - Robotbeat 6y ago
        Well that’s interesting to know. I think it is possible to do backyard chickens for eggs ethically, then. Just get an equal number of male and female chickens (gotta keep the females separate when still laying?) and keep them as pets long after they’re done laying. Eggs as a delicacy rather than as a major part of the diet.
- michael1999 6y ago
  They were already there, and had exterminated the walrus and seal. Who knows what they would have done after running out of penguins.
rozab 6y ago
Penguins are alien, we think of them as living in the last places untouched by civilisation. They feel like the opposite of a domestic animal.
- toomanybeersies 6y ago
  I know Australia is relatively remote, but it's a bit uncharitable to say we're untouched by civilisation!
entropi 6y ago
I thought about this too. The explanation I've reached is that when it comes to livestock, there is a certain amount of.. respect? going into the process. We are raising and exploiting cattle for thousands of years now, and every part of an animal is either directly consumed or used in other ways. Many cultures have elaborate rituals surrounding the slaughter, etc. This, I think, gives the impression of value to us. But for these penguins, there is no respect (still not sure if this is the best word) to speak of. You just cut them into pieces and boil thousands of them in a steampot, then discard most of it. The oil you get is in small quantities and is not even of high quality. The animal is treated as a thing to be used up, without any value.
- cpwright 6y ago
  I don't know that there is respect for the cow; but the cow is an asset that you've paid for. You don't want to waste the cow, because it cost you money either to buy or raise. The wild penguins cost you nothing, so wasting them has no impact on you. Wild Bison were not used responsibly either.
- smcl 6y ago
  You are right this definitely reflects some of the feelings I have bouncing around in my head. I agree "respect" isn't the right word but I wouldn't be able to come up with a better word myself.
PlatonicSkittle 6y ago
Hypothesis: You don't actually care about the penguins any more than you care about the cows. However, you've just read something that was intentionally designed to make you feel sad for penguins. If you'd read a piece similarly designed to make you feel bad for cows, you'd have a similar experience. For example, most people have a very negative reaction to slaughterhouse footage and videos of cows being abused by frustrated workers. But in a day or two, you won't care about either. That's not to say what was done to the penguins and what is done to cows isn't truely horrible. Just that human emotional responses to widespread atrocities are surprisingly fleeting, and those emotional responses don't reliabily indicate moral objection and can't be relied upon to bring change.
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
I feel it's fairly straightforward - we've been eating animals since caveman times, and it's (or was) a necessity of life. Many cultures have various rituals around killing the animal, making sure it's painless (that's what halal was for it's time), thanking god for the bounty or whatever. Obvious modern context is different, but still. Oil is 'food' for machines, and it certainly doesn't need to come from live creatures. To steam alive penguins by the thousands to produce measly 400g of oil, while wasting the rest of the carcass - that's barbaric. This whole process has simultaneously Nazi and Matrix vibes to it.

somedude895 6y ago

If you look at how sausages are made I think it won't be long until that happens: "We used to kill animals, grind their bodies into a paste and then stuff that paste back into their own bowels." Sounds pretty gnarly when you put it that way.

eightails 6y ago
Or honestly this can apply to much of the commercial meat industry. It usually isn't pretty.
- brnt 6y ago
  Industrial meat to be more precise. I've pretty much stopped buying meat from supermarkets, and buy from a local farmer who does his own butching. Funny thing is, it's not even more expensive. No middlemen!
  - wombat-man 6y ago
    That's kind of hard to do in the US, or at least it was when The Omnivore's Dilemma was written. The author visits a really great farm, but the farmer still had to send out cows and pigs somewhere else to get butchered due to laws about what slaughterhouse facilities need to have. Totally ok to butcher your own chickens though.
sneak 6y ago
Most animal-derived products sound pretty gnarly when you consider them somewhat dispassionately, even the ones that don't harm the animal by default: cheese is an opaque pregnant cow nipple fluid, curdled into solid chunks with intestinal enzymes, strained and squished, and tossed in a cave for a bit to get the mold and bacteria goin'. Best served drizzled with bee vomit.
- Robotbeat 6y ago
  That still sounds good to me, actually! :) I like the idea of animal products as a delicacy with the animals treated kindly the whole time, as pets.

toomanybeersies 6y ago

Industrial chicken production (I'm hesitant to call it farming) isn't any better. It's still common practice to cull male chicks using a grinder. It's arguably the most humane method; alternative methods include gassing with CO2, smothering them in plastic bags, or breaking their necks. Definitely morbid and gruesome, regardless.