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But Linux does not need Java either... The kernel/OS is orthogonal to the app layer.

rektide 6y ago
:rolleyes: we were talking about Android. Almost all Android apps are Java. Java & Kotlin are the official languages of Android. Large parts of Android are written in Java. We've explained again and again and again how the theory present is that Google needed an escape hatch from Java. The crude theory of Fuchsia being an escape hatch for Google, a way to get off Java, is at least true, in that it would help them get off Java. Which their most successful OS, Android, is extremely reliant upon. Yes, underneath, Android uses Linux. Until recently it's been a fairly mangled, hacked up Linux, but allegedly Android keeps getting closer to being able to run on mainline Linux. But Android is not Linux. Android is Linux plus lots and lots and lots of subsystems: display & audio subsystems, all sorts of other stuff, endless apis & platform & device subsystems. A huge amount of them being written in Java. Google's #1 OS was extremely coupled to Java. This is in no way debateable? Spend a couple minutes doing the most cursory of investigations & you should see: Google was extremely tied to Java. Still are.
- CameronNemo 6y ago
  > :rolleyes: The sass is not appreciated. This entire thread has been quite frustrating. I feel like we are arguing past each other. I don't think this is a useful use of my time.
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  - rektide 6y ago
    It has been frustrating. My frustration blew over, apologies. I think it has been useful. I'm sorry you are still unmoved. The situation seems clear to me, and quite heavily elaborated. I still don't see what your points are. There seems to be a fixation on Fuchsia as only a low level thing, but that's just Zircon, the smallest piece; Flutter & IPC & other subsystems make up a very different higher level system that is clearly attempting to be a new native app stack owned entirely by Google with licensing they control.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  That escapte hatch already existed and they ported Android Runtime to run alognside ChromeOS, instead of bringing ChromeOS to the phones. Just like they have been porting Android Runtime to Fuchsia during the last couple of years.

:rolleyes: we were talking about Android. Almost all Android apps are Java. Java & Kotlin are the official languages of Android. Large parts of Android are written in Java. We've explained again and again and again how the theory present is that Google needed an escape hatch from Java. The crude theory of Fuchsia being an escape hatch for Google, a way to get off Java, is at least true, in that it would help them get off Java. Which their most successful OS, Android, is extremely reliant upon. Yes, underneath, Android uses Linux. Until recently it's been a fairly mangled, hacked up Linux, but allegedly Android keeps getting closer to being able to run on mainline Linux. But Android is not Linux. Android is Linux plus lots and lots and lots of subsystems: display & audio subsystems, all sorts of other stuff, endless apis & platform & device subsystems. A huge amount of them being written in Java. Google's #1 OS was extremely coupled to Java. This is in no way debateable? Spend a couple minutes doing the most cursory of investigations & you should see: Google was extremely tied to Java. Still are.

CameronNemo 6y ago
> :rolleyes: The sass is not appreciated. This entire thread has been quite frustrating. I feel like we are arguing past each other. I don't think this is a useful use of my time.
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- rektide 6y ago
  It has been frustrating. My frustration blew over, apologies. I think it has been useful. I'm sorry you are still unmoved. The situation seems clear to me, and quite heavily elaborated. I still don't see what your points are. There seems to be a fixation on Fuchsia as only a low level thing, but that's just Zircon, the smallest piece; Flutter & IPC & other subsystems make up a very different higher level system that is clearly attempting to be a new native app stack owned entirely by Google with licensing they control.
pjmlp 6y ago
That escapte hatch already existed and they ported Android Runtime to run alognside ChromeOS, instead of bringing ChromeOS to the phones. Just like they have been porting Android Runtime to Fuchsia during the last couple of years.