5 ms·

Honestly the part on daily stand ups sounds like a negative to me. Sick of repeating the same status update every day for no benefit.

diydsp 6y ago
After working for 20 years with weekly status, switching to daily status is a big change. It removes developer autonomy and responsibility. Instead of toughing it out and trying different ways to solve a problem, we report our status and management leads us in a different direction each morning. Instead of gaining breadth, we get emasculated. Minor problems get elevated to obsessions, inverting priorities. Over the longer time frame, all the intelligence of the leader is "harvested" and ant-like developers haven't been practicing problem-solving skill so progress ossifies, but people still feel busy because they're trying new things every day. And the new things are only from the repertoire of the leader who isn't developing either. But hey we have chip makers speeding up chips every year, so this will continue. This honestly used to be much more fun in the old days. It was less productive, of course, but also less reverent. It didn't feel like a morning mass or pledge of allegiance, more like the Superfriends.
- sverhagen 6y ago
  This sounds like a team that would be dysfunctional at doing weekly updates as much as it is now at doing daily stand-ups, except that you get bothered by it five times more often not. Don't blame Agile/daily stand-ups...
  - jiofih 6y ago
    People are a product of their environment as much as the other way around.
- deanCommie 6y ago
  Man, you must have worked at some really toxic workplaces. I could write a paragraph reputing point by point every single one of your sentences in a healthy organization. All I can really say is you should consider switching jobs. You'll have to take my word for it today but it's way better out there, and you can join a company and a team that will make you feel like NONE of those things (yet still have daily standups)
  - zimpenfish 6y ago
    > Man, you must have worked at some really toxic workplaces. Me too, then, because that accurately describes every Agile workplace I've been in the last 10+ years. (I will concede that a lot of those were contracts and almost by definition, if they're hiring contractors to come in as emergency fixers, things are not going well anyway.)
- altacc 6y ago
  I think this is as much an issue with your leadership roles than it is with daily stand ups in general. I worked with teams where stand ups are requested & seen as important by the team. Personally, I see the aim of stand up to inform the team of work in case it is relevant to them & ask for help if needed. How the leads of the team react determines how good a lead they are. Developers should have enough autonomy to feel they are working well & able to properly investigate, problem solve and design solutions, without affecting the overall efficiency of the team. One of the more difficult aspects of a team lead role is balancing all the different personalities and work preferences in that team. Consider that "toughing it out" might be a desired work practice for some people but for others it's the opposite, it's leaving them struggling for longer than they need/want to be. Stand ups offer a chance to identify those situations, as not every developer will ask for help when they need it. The post stand-up follow up should then considers the individual developer's wishes (e.g. you should be able to ask to tough it out for longer, probably as long as it's not a critical blocker for other work) and that seems to be one of the places your leadership is going wrong.
bigtimegames 6y ago
Standup is a grind .. I think of ways to get out of it, like an extended toilet break
deanCommie 6y ago
If you're repeating the same status update every day then you're either blocked or you're not offering enough detail for your status update to be useful. In the first case you're depriving yourself of the opportunity to be helped by your team. In the second you're depriving your teammates of the opportunity to learn from your process, insights, and potentially helping them on their own task. Get your head out of your ass, and think about the maximum value you can provide to your team in 30seconds-2minutes in a daily status report.
- tluyben2 6y ago
  > In the first case you're depriving yourself of the opportunity to be helped by your team. I find that some people in the team want to help too much, wasting (a lot) of time on things that would've been solved in the same time by the one original person instead of by a bunch of persons while wasting multiple person's time. When someone is really stuck, then sure, but more often (in my experience) it's just the kind of stuck which is there because it just takes time to work through a particular problem and trying out solutions. I find that people often 'want to help' to show they need to be promoted / get more money because 'they are so good' and 'are such a great team player' (aka signalling instead of actually contributing to the bottom line; doing the opposite by, every day, wasting time 'helping out' instead of finishing their own tasks faster). Helping out is good, but I think daily is too often to assess (assessing from a 2minute blurb, because apparently the victim is not asking for it; they get 'help' forced upon them) if help is needed or not.
- arduinomancer 6y ago
  "Worked on feature ABCD yesterday, implemented part A, today will work on part B" Repeat the next day for C, then the next day for D. How is this useful information to anyone that it warrants a recurring meeting? The problem is standup is useful like 5% of the time when someone is actually blocked yet for some reason we decided it needs to be every day rather than more efficient ad-hoc meetings to unblock people.
mtone 6y ago
I've asked a few times my team whether they see value in our daily meetings, mentioning that it can easily disrupt flow, might have less value than ad-hoc focused meetings or chats on particular topics, and worse of all for me - might be counterproductive when we tend to wait the next day to address something and then opt to discuss it further separately. Response is always the same: during lockdown/WFH, it is one of the few times -- sometimes the only one -- we get to talk and hear other people so they'd like to keep it. So instead I'm trying to move away from it being a traditional scrum round-table and try to move towards chit-chat, show and tell, general updates, group quizzes, etc. All more useful probably.
- dx034 6y ago
  I also see this as the value of stand-ups. Even in the office, it's nice to have time with the team if not everyone goes to lunch together. Forced daily interaction can be good for team productivity.
danjac 6y ago
It may just take a few minutes of the day, but it's probably the most irritating and demoralizing few minutes of the day.

diydsp 6y ago

After working for 20 years with weekly status, switching to daily status is a big change. It removes developer autonomy and responsibility. Instead of toughing it out and trying different ways to solve a problem, we report our status and management leads us in a different direction each morning. Instead of gaining breadth, we get emasculated. Minor problems get elevated to obsessions, inverting priorities. Over the longer time frame, all the intelligence of the leader is "harvested" and ant-like developers haven't been practicing problem-solving skill so progress ossifies, but people still feel busy because they're trying new things every day. And the new things are only from the repertoire of the leader who isn't developing either. But hey we have chip makers speeding up chips every year, so this will continue. This honestly used to be much more fun in the old days. It was less productive, of course, but also less reverent. It didn't feel like a morning mass or pledge of allegiance, more like the Superfriends.

sverhagen 6y ago
This sounds like a team that would be dysfunctional at doing weekly updates as much as it is now at doing daily stand-ups, except that you get bothered by it five times more often not. Don't blame Agile/daily stand-ups...
- jiofih 6y ago
  People are a product of their environment as much as the other way around.
deanCommie 6y ago
Man, you must have worked at some really toxic workplaces. I could write a paragraph reputing point by point every single one of your sentences in a healthy organization. All I can really say is you should consider switching jobs. You'll have to take my word for it today but it's way better out there, and you can join a company and a team that will make you feel like NONE of those things (yet still have daily standups)
- zimpenfish 6y ago
  > Man, you must have worked at some really toxic workplaces. Me too, then, because that accurately describes every Agile workplace I've been in the last 10+ years. (I will concede that a lot of those were contracts and almost by definition, if they're hiring contractors to come in as emergency fixers, things are not going well anyway.)
altacc 6y ago
I think this is as much an issue with your leadership roles than it is with daily stand ups in general. I worked with teams where stand ups are requested & seen as important by the team. Personally, I see the aim of stand up to inform the team of work in case it is relevant to them & ask for help if needed. How the leads of the team react determines how good a lead they are. Developers should have enough autonomy to feel they are working well & able to properly investigate, problem solve and design solutions, without affecting the overall efficiency of the team. One of the more difficult aspects of a team lead role is balancing all the different personalities and work preferences in that team. Consider that "toughing it out" might be a desired work practice for some people but for others it's the opposite, it's leaving them struggling for longer than they need/want to be. Stand ups offer a chance to identify those situations, as not every developer will ask for help when they need it. The post stand-up follow up should then considers the individual developer's wishes (e.g. you should be able to ask to tough it out for longer, probably as long as it's not a critical blocker for other work) and that seems to be one of the places your leadership is going wrong.

bigtimegames 6y ago

Standup is a grind .. I think of ways to get out of it, like an extended toilet break

deanCommie 6y ago

If you're repeating the same status update every day then you're either blocked or you're not offering enough detail for your status update to be useful. In the first case you're depriving yourself of the opportunity to be helped by your team. In the second you're depriving your teammates of the opportunity to learn from your process, insights, and potentially helping them on their own task. Get your head out of your ass, and think about the maximum value you can provide to your team in 30seconds-2minutes in a daily status report.

tluyben2 6y ago
> In the first case you're depriving yourself of the opportunity to be helped by your team. I find that some people in the team want to help too much, wasting (a lot) of time on things that would've been solved in the same time by the one original person instead of by a bunch of persons while wasting multiple person's time. When someone is really stuck, then sure, but more often (in my experience) it's just the kind of stuck which is there because it just takes time to work through a particular problem and trying out solutions. I find that people often 'want to help' to show they need to be promoted / get more money because 'they are so good' and 'are such a great team player' (aka signalling instead of actually contributing to the bottom line; doing the opposite by, every day, wasting time 'helping out' instead of finishing their own tasks faster). Helping out is good, but I think daily is too often to assess (assessing from a 2minute blurb, because apparently the victim is not asking for it; they get 'help' forced upon them) if help is needed or not.
arduinomancer 6y ago
"Worked on feature ABCD yesterday, implemented part A, today will work on part B" Repeat the next day for C, then the next day for D. How is this useful information to anyone that it warrants a recurring meeting? The problem is standup is useful like 5% of the time when someone is actually blocked yet for some reason we decided it needs to be every day rather than more efficient ad-hoc meetings to unblock people.

mtone 6y ago

I've asked a few times my team whether they see value in our daily meetings, mentioning that it can easily disrupt flow, might have less value than ad-hoc focused meetings or chats on particular topics, and worse of all for me - might be counterproductive when we tend to wait the next day to address something and then opt to discuss it further separately. Response is always the same: during lockdown/WFH, it is one of the few times -- sometimes the only one -- we get to talk and hear other people so they'd like to keep it. So instead I'm trying to move away from it being a traditional scrum round-table and try to move towards chit-chat, show and tell, general updates, group quizzes, etc. All more useful probably.

dx034 6y ago
I also see this as the value of stand-ups. Even in the office, it's nice to have time with the team if not everyone goes to lunch together. Forced daily interaction can be good for team productivity.

danjac 6y ago

It may just take a few minutes of the day, but it's probably the most irritating and demoralizing few minutes of the day.