5 ms·

It staggers me that in an age of incredible innovation and technology- we still have no idea what biologically separates a man like this from the rest of us. I

It staggers me that in an age of incredible innovation and technology- we still have no idea what biologically separates a man like this from the rest of us. I'd like to take the idyllic position of (somewhat irresponsibly) hoping that some level of genius can be fostered and created in anyone from a young age.. But when I read articles like this I feel the compulsive need to sit back in my chair and ponder just how much more primitive my mind is in comparison to a man like John's.

ZephyrBlu 5y ago
Do we actually have no idea what the biological/genetic differences between geniuses and average people are? That's interesting. > I'd like to take the idyllic position of (somewhat irresponsibly) hoping that some level of genius can be fostered and created in anyone from a young age So you believe that genius is environmental and not genetic? Or maybe we are thinking about different definitions of genius.
- smnplk 5y ago
  I believe the foundations have to be genetic. There are multitude of factors involved and one of them is having a strong memory. But there also needs to be a drive and thirst for knowledge.
  - astrange 5y ago
    The difference between humans and other apes is genetic, but anything more than that is not. Humans have nearly no genetic diversity because of population bottlenecks, there are barely any interesting differences between us. It's also not that useful to think about. Phenylketonuria is a condition that makes you less intelligent if you drink Diet Coke, and most people don't have the gene for it. But not having phenylketonuria isn't a "gene for intelligence", it's just not having a disease.
    - MagnumOpus 5y ago
      Both points you make are massively incorrect. Humans do have massive genetic diversity, in physical characteristics as well as mental ones). In the last decade, GWAS analysis has now lead to the ability to identify the gene combinations responsible for intelligence (as well as height, various cancer predispositions etc), and predictive ability is high (i.e. predicting cohort differences in income, years of education etc just from genetic material). It is also something both extremely useful and important to think about both how to avoid both nature and nurture components of intelligence. Preventing diseases detrimental to brain development (like using unleaded fuel and paints) are some of the best bang for the buck on a population level, and maximizing the genetic potential of your offspring by avoiding genetic faults and choosing positive traits while doing IVF will be an unavoidable consequence of current research.
      - throwanem 5y ago
        > In the last decade, GWAS analysis has now lead to the ability to identify the gene combinations responsible for intelligence (as well as height, various cancer predispositions etc), and predictive ability is high (i.e. predicting cohort differences in income, years of education etc just from genetic material) That you seem to think GWAS operates at a genetic level, just for a start, leads me to doubt very strongly you will be able to provide any supporting citations for the claims you make here, which are wildly heterodox verging upon eugenicist. I am no longer close to the field of bioinformatics, though, so perhaps you will surprise me!
  - kaba0 5y ago
    I think drive and thirst for knowledge is more “nurture”, but the base is heavily correlated with genetics. I think it is the same with people holding world records in sports. You can get insanely good no matter where you come from (let alone some unfortunate medical conditions) with only drive and enough exercise, but to win a gold medal, you have to be born for a given sport (of course on top of the insane amount of motivation and exercise spent on it!). Also, probably it is less sport-specific, so someone becoming a world-class soccer player would have been similarly good in a similar sport.
    - confidantlake 5y ago
      Absolutely. Drive and determination can get you closer to your personal genetic ceiling. But if you don't have lucky genetics your ceiling will be lower than the world class level. Whether that is sports, math, painting, whatever.
- stephc_int13 5y ago
  From a genetic standpoint, all humans are 99.9% identical beasts. There is of course some genetic components in potential abilities. But I strongly believe that most of the differences we are seeing are built on compounded interest of environmental factors, starting from a very young age.
  - internetslave 5y ago
    Zero chance it’s environmental
    - stephc_int13 5y ago
      Why not?
  - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
    I'm not sure this is a viable argument considering that we also share much of our DNA with apes/monkeys. It seems like minor genetic differences can create large disparities. I definitely think environmental factors can compound on a genetic baseline though, and of course the earlier you start compounding the greater the returns.
    - stephc_int13 5y ago
      The differences between apes and humans is much larger than between humans, by at least an order of magnitude.
      - KMag 5y ago
        But that's not a sufficient counter-argument that the GGP post's reasoning is sound. Even single base pair mutations can have huge impacts. A surprising percentage of the human genome is retroviral in origin. As far as I know, "Genetic clock" analysis is the only sound application of counting base pair differences. I don't think the GP is arguing one way or the other. They seem to be mostly questioning how wide the error bars should be on these statements. It looks like a Socratic twist on "citation needed" without an implication that statements are necessarily wrong.
- tenaciousDaniel 5y ago
  My personal experience is that it's a bit of both. I am not a genius, but I can tell that I'm likely above average. I was raised in an environment that did not value intellect or education, and I always felt out of place. It definitely felt innate, and there are lots of stories from people in similar circumstances. On the other hand, I never did well in school, especially math. One of my teachers literally called me stupid. So I had this self-perception of just not being very good at STEM. Had I not fallen into programming by accident, I would never have changed that perception of myself. I imagine there are very many people who had similar experiences, but were not so lucky as to learn their actual potential. So, it's almost certainly a combination of factors.
internetslave 5y ago
The well known secret is that the large majority of men like this are Jewish. Einstein was similar. You aren’t really suppose to discuss it openly, but genius level intelligence almost never arises randomly, it comes from specific genetic pools with specific mutations
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
geenew 5y ago
To repeat a quote that probably appears in every Von Neumann post, "Teller also said "von Neumann would carry on a conversation with my 3-year-old son, and the two of them would talk as equals, and I sometimes wondered if he used the same principle when he talked to the rest of us."
- vecinu 5y ago
  Obligatory Edward Teller talking about Von Neumann => https://youtu.be/ra4K6WPUkpk https://youtu.be/ra4K6WPUkpk
iandanforth 5y ago
László Polgár believed this and turned his daughters into chess prodigies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r
- Sharlin 5y ago
  It’s pretty clear that the Polgár daughters had a very favorable genetic disposition on their side as well.
yosito 5y ago
> we still have no idea what biologically separates a man like this from the rest of us I don't think it was a biological separation. Neumann, and his brilliant peers, all grew up in Hungary in the midst of political and ethnic oppression with significant economic and language barriers to overcome. Books have been written about it, and I can't accurately recount the facts. But it seems to me that what separates him and his peers is their perseverance in the face of adversity. Having overcome the very difficult circumstances in which they were born prepared them for great success later in life. It's inspiring, but in some ways it's also survivorship bias, since there were uncountable people who were born in the same circumstances and did not overcome. I think similar things are happening with refugees today. Those who overcome their circumstances often go on to be outstanding examples of genius and accomplishment in their fields.
- bidirectional 5y ago
  I think you are confusing von Neumann with someone else, because that is not the case, at all. He grew up in a wealthy family which was ennobled by the emperor when he was 10 (hence the von), and spoke Hungarian natively. In childhood he was taught by governesses in numerous major European languages before going to a Christian school for the Hungarian elite, while receiving private tutoring from a renowned mathematician. Then he went to prestigious universities in Germany and Switzerland, before becoming the youngest Privatdozent in University of Berlin history. The situation obviously rapidly changed in Europe, but Von Neumann left for Princeton before the 30s began. He grew up in a life of great privilege.
  - yosito 5y ago
    As I said "I can't accurately recount the facts", but Hungary was definitely not a country of privilege at really any time in it's history, much less the late 1800s and the early 1900s. The facts of Neumann's own life may have been much more fortunate than his country of birth. That is something I don't know much about. But I would imagine, no matter how privileged his life was, the fact that he was born in a country that was oppressed by a foreign superpower, lived through a holocaust of his ethnic group, and spoke Hungarian as his first language in a world dominated by German and English, shaped who he was.

ZephyrBlu 5y ago

Do we actually have no idea what the biological/genetic differences between geniuses and average people are? That's interesting. > I'd like to take the idyllic position of (somewhat irresponsibly) hoping that some level of genius can be fostered and created in anyone from a young age So you believe that genius is environmental and not genetic? Or maybe we are thinking about different definitions of genius.

smnplk 5y ago
I believe the foundations have to be genetic. There are multitude of factors involved and one of them is having a strong memory. But there also needs to be a drive and thirst for knowledge.
- astrange 5y ago
  The difference between humans and other apes is genetic, but anything more than that is not. Humans have nearly no genetic diversity because of population bottlenecks, there are barely any interesting differences between us. It's also not that useful to think about. Phenylketonuria is a condition that makes you less intelligent if you drink Diet Coke, and most people don't have the gene for it. But not having phenylketonuria isn't a "gene for intelligence", it's just not having a disease.
  - MagnumOpus 5y ago
    Both points you make are massively incorrect. Humans do have massive genetic diversity, in physical characteristics as well as mental ones). In the last decade, GWAS analysis has now lead to the ability to identify the gene combinations responsible for intelligence (as well as height, various cancer predispositions etc), and predictive ability is high (i.e. predicting cohort differences in income, years of education etc just from genetic material). It is also something both extremely useful and important to think about both how to avoid both nature and nurture components of intelligence. Preventing diseases detrimental to brain development (like using unleaded fuel and paints) are some of the best bang for the buck on a population level, and maximizing the genetic potential of your offspring by avoiding genetic faults and choosing positive traits while doing IVF will be an unavoidable consequence of current research.
    - throwanem 5y ago
      > In the last decade, GWAS analysis has now lead to the ability to identify the gene combinations responsible for intelligence (as well as height, various cancer predispositions etc), and predictive ability is high (i.e. predicting cohort differences in income, years of education etc just from genetic material) That you seem to think GWAS operates at a genetic level, just for a start, leads me to doubt very strongly you will be able to provide any supporting citations for the claims you make here, which are wildly heterodox verging upon eugenicist. I am no longer close to the field of bioinformatics, though, so perhaps you will surprise me!
- kaba0 5y ago
  I think drive and thirst for knowledge is more “nurture”, but the base is heavily correlated with genetics. I think it is the same with people holding world records in sports. You can get insanely good no matter where you come from (let alone some unfortunate medical conditions) with only drive and enough exercise, but to win a gold medal, you have to be born for a given sport (of course on top of the insane amount of motivation and exercise spent on it!). Also, probably it is less sport-specific, so someone becoming a world-class soccer player would have been similarly good in a similar sport.
  - confidantlake 5y ago
    Absolutely. Drive and determination can get you closer to your personal genetic ceiling. But if you don't have lucky genetics your ceiling will be lower than the world class level. Whether that is sports, math, painting, whatever.
stephc_int13 5y ago
From a genetic standpoint, all humans are 99.9% identical beasts. There is of course some genetic components in potential abilities. But I strongly believe that most of the differences we are seeing are built on compounded interest of environmental factors, starting from a very young age.
- internetslave 5y ago
  Zero chance it’s environmental
  - stephc_int13 5y ago
    Why not?
- ZephyrBlu 5y ago
  I'm not sure this is a viable argument considering that we also share much of our DNA with apes/monkeys. It seems like minor genetic differences can create large disparities. I definitely think environmental factors can compound on a genetic baseline though, and of course the earlier you start compounding the greater the returns.
  - stephc_int13 5y ago
    The differences between apes and humans is much larger than between humans, by at least an order of magnitude.
    - KMag 5y ago
      But that's not a sufficient counter-argument that the GGP post's reasoning is sound. Even single base pair mutations can have huge impacts. A surprising percentage of the human genome is retroviral in origin. As far as I know, "Genetic clock" analysis is the only sound application of counting base pair differences. I don't think the GP is arguing one way or the other. They seem to be mostly questioning how wide the error bars should be on these statements. It looks like a Socratic twist on "citation needed" without an implication that statements are necessarily wrong.
tenaciousDaniel 5y ago
My personal experience is that it's a bit of both. I am not a genius, but I can tell that I'm likely above average. I was raised in an environment that did not value intellect or education, and I always felt out of place. It definitely felt innate, and there are lots of stories from people in similar circumstances. On the other hand, I never did well in school, especially math. One of my teachers literally called me stupid. So I had this self-perception of just not being very good at STEM. Had I not fallen into programming by accident, I would never have changed that perception of myself. I imagine there are very many people who had similar experiences, but were not so lucky as to learn their actual potential. So, it's almost certainly a combination of factors.

internetslave 5y ago

The well known secret is that the large majority of men like this are Jewish. Einstein was similar. You aren’t really suppose to discuss it openly, but genius level intelligence almost never arises randomly, it comes from specific genetic pools with specific mutations

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

geenew 5y ago

To repeat a quote that probably appears in every Von Neumann post, "Teller also said "von Neumann would carry on a conversation with my 3-year-old son, and the two of them would talk as equals, and I sometimes wondered if he used the same principle when he talked to the rest of us."

vecinu 5y ago
Obligatory Edward Teller talking about Von Neumann => https://youtu.be/ra4K6WPUkpk https://youtu.be/ra4K6WPUkpk

iandanforth 5y ago

László Polgár believed this and turned his daughters into chess prodigies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r

Sharlin 5y ago
It’s pretty clear that the Polgár daughters had a very favorable genetic disposition on their side as well.

yosito 5y ago

> we still have no idea what biologically separates a man like this from the rest of us I don't think it was a biological separation. Neumann, and his brilliant peers, all grew up in Hungary in the midst of political and ethnic oppression with significant economic and language barriers to overcome. Books have been written about it, and I can't accurately recount the facts. But it seems to me that what separates him and his peers is their perseverance in the face of adversity. Having overcome the very difficult circumstances in which they were born prepared them for great success later in life. It's inspiring, but in some ways it's also survivorship bias, since there were uncountable people who were born in the same circumstances and did not overcome. I think similar things are happening with refugees today. Those who overcome their circumstances often go on to be outstanding examples of genius and accomplishment in their fields.

bidirectional 5y ago
I think you are confusing von Neumann with someone else, because that is not the case, at all. He grew up in a wealthy family which was ennobled by the emperor when he was 10 (hence the von), and spoke Hungarian natively. In childhood he was taught by governesses in numerous major European languages before going to a Christian school for the Hungarian elite, while receiving private tutoring from a renowned mathematician. Then he went to prestigious universities in Germany and Switzerland, before becoming the youngest Privatdozent in University of Berlin history. The situation obviously rapidly changed in Europe, but Von Neumann left for Princeton before the 30s began. He grew up in a life of great privilege.
- yosito 5y ago
  As I said "I can't accurately recount the facts", but Hungary was definitely not a country of privilege at really any time in it's history, much less the late 1800s and the early 1900s. The facts of Neumann's own life may have been much more fortunate than his country of birth. That is something I don't know much about. But I would imagine, no matter how privileged his life was, the fact that he was born in a country that was oppressed by a foreign superpower, lived through a holocaust of his ethnic group, and spoke Hungarian as his first language in a world dominated by German and English, shaped who he was.