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If there were no income taxes, there would be no net drain on the citizenry, thus more stimulus. The whole concept of stimulus is a bait & switch as the governm

If there were no income taxes, there would be no net drain on the citizenry, thus more stimulus. The whole concept of stimulus is a bait & switch as the government takes away more money to presumably give a partial refund back to the public by printing more fiat, thereby devaluing the existing holdings. If you are anti-war, how will the government pay for its Neverending wars without taxes?

bumby 6y ago
Do you agree that not everyone receives a net negative amount from the government? E.g., for those ~47% who pay an effective 0% federal income tax rate but get services (stimulus, roads, Medicare, SNAP benefits, Social Security etc.), I don't think they will be better off. If the stance is that the free market will magically make things better for them, that's a little too hand-wavy for me and I'm not sure history backs this up. I know the bogeyman for fiat currency is inflation, but we heard people screaming about that over the bailouts of the financial crisis and yet we arguably suffered from a lack of inflation in the ensuing decade. Only now are we starting to see some inflation in commodities; it's yet to be seen if this is short-lived (as commodity inflation can be) or if we see real inflation hit metrics like wages. The problem with your assertion that the way to be "anti-war" is to shut the door on taxes is that it also shuts the door on everything else. I do believe there are some things the government does well, and potentially better than the private sector.
- briantakita 6y ago
  History does back it up. When America had a 0% income tax & did not have the FED, America had unprecedented growth in population, quality of life innovation, & prosperity. Note that America has risen to prominence due to a number of factors, included a history of relatively limited government, despite recent increases in government size, scope, & power. America is riding the wave of prosperity created by it's citizens over 200+ years, not the expansion government, in fact, despite the expansion of government. You fail to mention that those ~47% are still trapped in poverty & w/ disparities in health despite the government services. If the government services were so good, why are they suffering? Why do families that enter welfare & assisted housing have an abysmal rate of improving their livelihood? Why are there many stories of people escaping poverty before any form of government assistance due to their own ability to create prosperity, free from regulations which only inhibit their growth? You may mention the 1930's stock market crash, caused by insiders gaming the market combined with financialization created by centralization (enforced by the government). Note that the some of same people responsible for the crash later oversaw the market by creating the SEC & other related entities. You may have an argument that courts are useful, especially in enforcing contract law, though. Though the increase in the amount of laws has created a top-heavy system where everybody is out of compliance in some way & the choice of what to enforce when is a way to tip the scales of justice, allowing the government officials to have a large influence on who & what activities succeed and who & what does not.
  - bumby 6y ago
    >History does back it up. I'd be interested from where you are drawing this conclusion. I was interested but the data I looked up seems to tell the opposite story. Looking at GDP growth, the average from 1800-1913 (when the Fed was created) the average year-over-year GDP growth was 1.48%. From 1913 onward, the average GDP growth was 2.13%. Moreover, if you plot the 10 year moving average, you see that the post-Fed era tends to be much more stable with less boom/bust cycling. The exception is the Great Depression (trough) and the post-WW2 boom (huge peak). Likewise, life expectancy increase has pretty much been on the same trajectory (except for WW1) regardless of period[2]. Similarly, innovation measured by the 10-year moving average of patent application year-over-year growth rate shows the levels are similar from 1870s-present[3]. There's a marked dip after the Great Depression but the bounds of the growth rate is between 0-7% cycles, being a little higher during the tech boom of the late 1990s. >Why do families that enter welfare & assisted housing have an abysmal rate of improving their livelihood? At least from my experience, most would say what the government is providing does provide a huge improvement in their quality of life. Again, I'm asking what is your alternative? How does getting rid of these programs going to benefit those same people? (Please speak in specifics if possible). >You may mention the 1930's stock market crash, caused by insiders gaming the market Not my position. Just like 2008 it was due to excessive leverage and speculation. Maybe my cursory look is taking the wrong conclusions, but your claims (without supporting evidence) come across as claims "that aren't facts, I just know they're true". [1]https://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/usgdp/ https://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/usgdp/ [2]https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040079/life-expectancy-united-states-all-time/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040079/life-expectancy-... [3]https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/h_counts.htm https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/h_counts.h...

bumby 6y ago

Do you agree that not everyone receives a net negative amount from the government? E.g., for those ~47% who pay an effective 0% federal income tax rate but get services (stimulus, roads, Medicare, SNAP benefits, Social Security etc.), I don't think they will be better off. If the stance is that the free market will magically make things better for them, that's a little too hand-wavy for me and I'm not sure history backs this up. I know the bogeyman for fiat currency is inflation, but we heard people screaming about that over the bailouts of the financial crisis and yet we arguably suffered from a lack of inflation in the ensuing decade. Only now are we starting to see some inflation in commodities; it's yet to be seen if this is short-lived (as commodity inflation can be) or if we see real inflation hit metrics like wages. The problem with your assertion that the way to be "anti-war" is to shut the door on taxes is that it also shuts the door on everything else. I do believe there are some things the government does well, and potentially better than the private sector.

briantakita 6y ago
History does back it up. When America had a 0% income tax & did not have the FED, America had unprecedented growth in population, quality of life innovation, & prosperity. Note that America has risen to prominence due to a number of factors, included a history of relatively limited government, despite recent increases in government size, scope, & power. America is riding the wave of prosperity created by it's citizens over 200+ years, not the expansion government, in fact, despite the expansion of government. You fail to mention that those ~47% are still trapped in poverty & w/ disparities in health despite the government services. If the government services were so good, why are they suffering? Why do families that enter welfare & assisted housing have an abysmal rate of improving their livelihood? Why are there many stories of people escaping poverty before any form of government assistance due to their own ability to create prosperity, free from regulations which only inhibit their growth? You may mention the 1930's stock market crash, caused by insiders gaming the market combined with financialization created by centralization (enforced by the government). Note that the some of same people responsible for the crash later oversaw the market by creating the SEC & other related entities. You may have an argument that courts are useful, especially in enforcing contract law, though. Though the increase in the amount of laws has created a top-heavy system where everybody is out of compliance in some way & the choice of what to enforce when is a way to tip the scales of justice, allowing the government officials to have a large influence on who & what activities succeed and who & what does not.
- bumby 6y ago
  >History does back it up. I'd be interested from where you are drawing this conclusion. I was interested but the data I looked up seems to tell the opposite story. Looking at GDP growth, the average from 1800-1913 (when the Fed was created) the average year-over-year GDP growth was 1.48%. From 1913 onward, the average GDP growth was 2.13%. Moreover, if you plot the 10 year moving average, you see that the post-Fed era tends to be much more stable with less boom/bust cycling. The exception is the Great Depression (trough) and the post-WW2 boom (huge peak). Likewise, life expectancy increase has pretty much been on the same trajectory (except for WW1) regardless of period[2]. Similarly, innovation measured by the 10-year moving average of patent application year-over-year growth rate shows the levels are similar from 1870s-present[3]. There's a marked dip after the Great Depression but the bounds of the growth rate is between 0-7% cycles, being a little higher during the tech boom of the late 1990s. >Why do families that enter welfare & assisted housing have an abysmal rate of improving their livelihood? At least from my experience, most would say what the government is providing does provide a huge improvement in their quality of life. Again, I'm asking what is your alternative? How does getting rid of these programs going to benefit those same people? (Please speak in specifics if possible). >You may mention the 1930's stock market crash, caused by insiders gaming the market Not my position. Just like 2008 it was due to excessive leverage and speculation. Maybe my cursory look is taking the wrong conclusions, but your claims (without supporting evidence) come across as claims "that aren't facts, I just know they're true". [1]https://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/usgdp/ https://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/usgdp/ [2]https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040079/life-expectancy-united-states-all-time/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040079/life-expectancy-... [3]https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/h_counts.htm https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/h_counts.h...