5 ms·

Is Fuchsia (and Flutter by Extension) dead since the Oracle thing has worked out now?

by domano 6y ago

bluejekyll 6y ago
What, if anything, do these have to do with each other?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- tialaramex 6y ago
  Some people have imagined that Fuchsia's destiny is to replace Android, and some of them believe that's because Android is tainted by Java and Google will want to sidestep. This obviously made more sense in a world where Oracle gets billions of dollars "royalties" from Google for the fact that Android apps are written in Java, which the US Supreme Court decided is maybe one step crazier than they felt ready for.
  - CameronNemo 6y ago
    I don't understand this thought process. Java and Kotlin apps run just fine on Fuchsia (or so I have heard). Fuchsia is only relevant for lower layers of the stack. Notably device drivers.
    - rektide 6y ago
      Please re-read the parent more closely. What you are talking about has no bearing on the scenario presented. The parent said: > Some people have imagined that Fuchsia's destiny is to replace Android, and some of them believe that's because Android is tainted by Java and Google will want to sidestep. Whether or not Fuchsia can or might run Java or Kotlin apps, as you talk about, is not what this scenario is about. The apocalyptic scenario some believed about Fuchsia was that it existed as an OS that didn't need Java. If it can host & run Java or Kotlin apps? That might have had to go, that might have had to be cut. But Fuchsia could have survived. Fuchsia is independent of Java and Kotlin. To run a Zircon kernel, to run a Fuchsia OS required no Java technologies. One maybe could/can use Java to write apps (having trouble stablishing this premise), but Java is not a dependency for this OS. With Fuchsia, Google could have given up Java, if they had to. What you @CameronNemo are talking about- the ability to use Java and Kotlin to write Fuchia apps, if true[1], is something that could have been sacrificed without affecting the rest of Fuchsia. I'd also point out that Fuchsia does not advertise Java or Kotlin support[2], regardless of whatever you may have heard, but it was at least once rumored of, so I can sympathize. This is 99.9998% a conspiracy theory & in my estimation you'd have to be daft to think Fuchsia was only an escape hatch (there's a ton of great technical work breaking from Linux & more in it), but the "Fuchsia is only to escape Java if we have to" scenario sketched was at least technically plausible & sound, checked out. It has no Java dependencies. [1] https://9to5google.com/2018/11/09/fuchsia-friday-java-borrowing-from-android/ https://9to5google.com/2018/11/09/fuchsia-friday-java-borrow... [2] https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/concepts https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/concepts
      - throwaway189262 6y ago
        Escaping Java doesn't make sense to me now that the Oracle stuff is resolved. Java is a great choice for phone apps. Huge developer base with good productivity. And it's quite fast for a high level language. And the backwards compatibility. One of the codebases I work on has loads of untouched 15 year old code that runs fine on Java 16. Good luck doing that in JS, Python, or really any other popular language besides C/C++
        rektide 6y ago
        ok but it got resolved less than 2 days ago. far far more so, leaping to javas defense doesn't feel related to what this thread has been about. the thread has been about strategy & tactics, about escaping with something if the legal situation did go bad. and as I stated, it doesn't seem like Google's Fuchsia does support Java. it might have been an idle notion, a legacy Android compatibility layer, but Java does not seem to be part of the modern Fuchsia attempt. at all. from what I can find. whatever pluses Java has, it doesn't seem like it's relevant enough to warrant any modern Fuchsia support. and the legacy Android support seems dubious / maybe non existent. again I think the "fuchsia was just an escape hatch if Google had to have a non java based os" folks are a bit whack. but it was also a legit thread. even post Oracle trial, a break from 15 years of legacy & an underlying >2x as old posix api, for a more security conscious premise, sounds great, long long overdue. Java has upsides but I don't think this thread should have to suffer that radical change in discussion. it muddies what was being talked about.
        throwaway189262 6y ago
        Then downvote and move on. Nobody is forcing you to read replies buried at the bottom of the thread going off on tangents. Fuscia and Java are both Android and tech related, don't see the problem. And the previous comment about Fuscia is just as off topic as mine, if not moreso. Java is at the core of Android and Fuscia hasn't made it out of the lab
      - CameronNemo 6y ago
        But Linux does not need Java either... The kernel/OS is orthogonal to the app layer.
  - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
    The Fuchsia security model is a significant departure from classical Unix derivatives. They will presumably want to keep it going for that benefit alone.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Those people keep forgetting that Google has been porting Android Runtime (ART) to run on Fuschia for a while now.
kmeisthax 6y ago
No. Fuschia would not have helped - they would still have to license Oracle APIs in order to maintain compatibility with their own, derived APIs. Google's actual workaround to Oracle's lawsuit was to use OpenJDK, which also massively improved their Java compatibility. OpenJDK is produced by Oracle and under GPL, so using it (or just relicensing Apache Harmony as GPL) cuts off the API copyright claims (as you now have a license).

Is Fuchsia (and Flutter by Extension) dead since the Oracle thing has worked out now?

by domano 6y ago

Is Fuchsia (and Flutter by Extension) dead since the Oracle thing has worked out now?

bluejekyll 6y ago

What, if anything, do these have to do with each other?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tialaramex 6y ago
Some people have imagined that Fuchsia's destiny is to replace Android, and some of them believe that's because Android is tainted by Java and Google will want to sidestep. This obviously made more sense in a world where Oracle gets billions of dollars "royalties" from Google for the fact that Android apps are written in Java, which the US Supreme Court decided is maybe one step crazier than they felt ready for.
- CameronNemo 6y ago
  I don't understand this thought process. Java and Kotlin apps run just fine on Fuchsia (or so I have heard). Fuchsia is only relevant for lower layers of the stack. Notably device drivers.
  - rektide 6y ago
    Please re-read the parent more closely. What you are talking about has no bearing on the scenario presented. The parent said: > Some people have imagined that Fuchsia's destiny is to replace Android, and some of them believe that's because Android is tainted by Java and Google will want to sidestep. Whether or not Fuchsia can or might run Java or Kotlin apps, as you talk about, is not what this scenario is about. The apocalyptic scenario some believed about Fuchsia was that it existed as an OS that didn't need Java. If it can host & run Java or Kotlin apps? That might have had to go, that might have had to be cut. But Fuchsia could have survived. Fuchsia is independent of Java and Kotlin. To run a Zircon kernel, to run a Fuchsia OS required no Java technologies. One maybe could/can use Java to write apps (having trouble stablishing this premise), but Java is not a dependency for this OS. With Fuchsia, Google could have given up Java, if they had to. What you @CameronNemo are talking about- the ability to use Java and Kotlin to write Fuchia apps, if true[1], is something that could have been sacrificed without affecting the rest of Fuchsia. I'd also point out that Fuchsia does not advertise Java or Kotlin support[2], regardless of whatever you may have heard, but it was at least once rumored of, so I can sympathize. This is 99.9998% a conspiracy theory & in my estimation you'd have to be daft to think Fuchsia was only an escape hatch (there's a ton of great technical work breaking from Linux & more in it), but the "Fuchsia is only to escape Java if we have to" scenario sketched was at least technically plausible & sound, checked out. It has no Java dependencies. [1] https://9to5google.com/2018/11/09/fuchsia-friday-java-borrowing-from-android/ https://9to5google.com/2018/11/09/fuchsia-friday-java-borrow... [2] https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/concepts https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/concepts
    - throwaway189262 6y ago
      Escaping Java doesn't make sense to me now that the Oracle stuff is resolved. Java is a great choice for phone apps. Huge developer base with good productivity. And it's quite fast for a high level language. And the backwards compatibility. One of the codebases I work on has loads of untouched 15 year old code that runs fine on Java 16. Good luck doing that in JS, Python, or really any other popular language besides C/C++
      - rektide 6y ago
        ok but it got resolved less than 2 days ago. far far more so, leaping to javas defense doesn't feel related to what this thread has been about. the thread has been about strategy & tactics, about escaping with something if the legal situation did go bad. and as I stated, it doesn't seem like Google's Fuchsia does support Java. it might have been an idle notion, a legacy Android compatibility layer, but Java does not seem to be part of the modern Fuchsia attempt. at all. from what I can find. whatever pluses Java has, it doesn't seem like it's relevant enough to warrant any modern Fuchsia support. and the legacy Android support seems dubious / maybe non existent. again I think the "fuchsia was just an escape hatch if Google had to have a non java based os" folks are a bit whack. but it was also a legit thread. even post Oracle trial, a break from 15 years of legacy & an underlying >2x as old posix api, for a more security conscious premise, sounds great, long long overdue. Java has upsides but I don't think this thread should have to suffer that radical change in discussion. it muddies what was being talked about.
        throwaway189262 6y ago
        Then downvote and move on. Nobody is forcing you to read replies buried at the bottom of the thread going off on tangents. Fuscia and Java are both Android and tech related, don't see the problem. And the previous comment about Fuscia is just as off topic as mine, if not moreso. Java is at the core of Android and Fuscia hasn't made it out of the lab
    - CameronNemo 6y ago
      But Linux does not need Java either... The kernel/OS is orthogonal to the app layer.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  The Fuchsia security model is a significant departure from classical Unix derivatives. They will presumably want to keep it going for that benefit alone.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Those people keep forgetting that Google has been porting Android Runtime (ART) to run on Fuschia for a while now.

kmeisthax 6y ago

No. Fuschia would not have helped - they would still have to license Oracle APIs in order to maintain compatibility with their own, derived APIs. Google's actual workaround to Oracle's lawsuit was to use OpenJDK, which also massively improved their Java compatibility. OpenJDK is produced by Oracle and under GPL, so using it (or just relicensing Apache Harmony as GPL) cuts off the API copyright claims (as you now have a license).