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I think people here will probably underestimate how common your story is in the security industry. Just from DEFCON connections, I'm on a first name basis with

I think people here will probably underestimate how common your story is in the security industry. Just from DEFCON connections, I'm on a first name basis with a roughly four different FBI employees who are constantly trying to recruit myself or friends as informants. We discuss, openly, what a bad deal it is to be an informant and how I don't have any useful information for them anyway. But they persist. Thankfully lightly. Nothing like what you mentioned, but I fully believe that your story happens. And regularly.

llaolleh 6y ago
What does the FBI offer for becoming an informant if you are a law abiding citizen?
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  They won't ruin your life. It's an offer you can't refuse.
- lrvick 6y ago
  They offered: "Politicians are not happy. Someone has to pay for it. If you help us we can make sure you are not that someone" And yeah, I was terrified. It was a mistake to talk to them in the first place. They got in my door by telling me they wanted my opinion on some activity they felt is a threat to a visiting president then things took a fast turn asking me about my research and contacts. FBI is 100% allowed to lie to you but if you lie back to them they own you. They also like to catch you unprepared and off guard. Don't fall for it. Say something like: "I'm sorry this is not a topic I feel well prepared to talk about right now. If you have a court order I will honor it but even then I am going to need time to collect my thoughts and ensure I am speaking accurately. I'll walk you out" Then get a lawyer to coach you on what you can and can't say. If they catch you in a lie even by accident they can -force- you to be an informant.
  - viraptor 6y ago
    I'm curious, do you know what happens if you tried to make yourself useless by publicly announcing that FBI is trying to make you an informant? Has anyone tried that as a way out?
    - s5300 6y ago
      Likely obstruction of justice/some other nature of obstruction that may leave you with some pretty serious charges.
    - lrvick 6y ago
      At the time they threatened me to not tell anyone they spoke with me or unspecified bad things would happen. I am older and have spent a lot more time researching law now, and no longer choose to let strongarm chilling effects like this work. There are tons of good people in law enforcement and three letter agencies that actually protect people. I know some of them. I also know some overstep and abuse their power and it is on all of us to call it out when it happens.
  - quercusa 6y ago
    Law professor James Duane reminds you: "Don't Talk to the Police" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
    - supuun 6y ago
      thank you, i really enjoyed this lecture.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    > "Politicians are not happy. Someone has to pay for it. If you help us we can make sure you are not that someone" Isn't that racketeering?
    - salawat 6y ago
      Not when the government does it. The great self-referential inconsistency, if you will.
- roget 6y ago
  Not being set up.
anonporridge 6y ago
Could you elaborate more on why it's a bad deal?
- c2h5oh 6y ago
  - you will be asked/pressured to do things - to be places and talk to people you weren't planning to. Best case scenario it's at the cost of your time, worst case scenario it's at the cost of your personal safety. - you will be expected to report on what other people, including your friends, said or did. Even if they are not doing anything illegal FBI might want information to pressure them into being an informant. I wasn't in a situation like that, but I expect it would have a huge chilling effect on me - I'd start self-censoring interactions with others our of fear they mention something benign, but gray area legally that I would laugh at otherwise, but now would be required to report and get them in trouble. This wouldn't have to be something big - I'm sure at some point in time a friend of yours recommended a movie or a tv show that isn't available in your region, implying they have pirated a copy. Would your first reaction be to notify FBI?
  - freeopinion 6y ago
    Just start wearing a brown shirt whenever you are around friends. Maybe they'll figure it out.
    - neolog 6y ago
      What's the brown shirt about?
      - biddit 6y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung colloquially called "Brownshirts"
      - rbanffy 6y ago
        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brownshirt https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brownshirt Also terrible fashion tastes.
PastaMonster 6y ago
First name basis with FBI employees and you didn't do your duty and publish all the information you have extracted from them including names and face pictures. What the hell?! FBI befriends you, that is just their way to get informants. The be your friend manipulation. They are trained to manipulate you. You fell for it hard!
- jkaplowitz 6y ago
  I'm guessing publishing that information would create exposure to federal criminal charges of endangering FBI agents (not sure of the exact name of the charge). Then the FBI really would have leverage to either gain a new informant for as long as the statute of limitations lasts or throw the researcher in prison with a criminal record.
- busterarm 6y ago
  If you think doxxing low ranking federal law enforcement for the high crime of doing their job is _your duty_, then I don't have much to say to you. Antagonizing your government over low stakes is not freedom fighting. You can be civil with people who don't share the same agenda as you. Shocking thought in today's society, I guess.
  - twirlock 6y ago
    Some people are not worthy of respect. If I were in a gang, and I wanted to be respected by people who aren't scumbags or afraid of me, I would quit the gang.
  - roget 6y ago
    They are terrorists, the agents of an occupational government. They should be exposed and punished.
proffan 6y ago
I know others who are in exactly the same situation (DEFCON connections). Astonished to see that it is that common.
- nuisance-bear 6y ago
  Robert Graham (eratasec) told a story that they threatened to falsely taint his security clearance if he didn't cancel a DEFCON talk.
  - PastaMonster 6y ago
    And they got their way if my memory doesn't fail me. DEFCON talk was cancelled.
    - TylerLives 6y ago
      What was the topic of the talk?
      - WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
        I couldn't find out. This is as close as I came. "I had the FBI come threaten me to stop a talk that isn't as scary as 20 SCADA bugs," Graham says. ref: https://www.darkreading.com/vulnerabilities---threats/power-plant-hack-talk-free-tools-pulled-from-def-con-lineup/d/d-id/1138125 https://www.darkreading.com/vulnerabilities---threats/power-... (2012)
dccoolgai 6y ago
I feel like this is a good time to remind you, and everyone: never talk to federal agents. FBI, Fish and Game, Secret Service. Don't. They can say you told them anything, and guess what? It's a felony to lie to them. They will push a pre-written statement in front of you and if you refuse to sign it they will threaten you with saying you lied to them. Don't. Talk. To. Feds. Ever.
- WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
  > Don't. Talk. To. Feds. Ever. This is the lesson I learned to teach to my kids. I didn't get to this complete turnaround easily. It took years of systemic, post-911 malfeasance (and endless accompanying lies) by pretty much every fed LEO/IC agency, to nurture this mindset in me.
  - wildmanx 6y ago
    Let me play the devils advocate here.. How are they supposed to investigate crime if nobody talks to them?
    - 317070 6y ago
      I speak for myself here, but it is not that I would recommend against talking in principle. Only, in practice the system is set up for talking to be universally a bad idea. If the system puts in place some better checks and balances for people to fight abuses (as the one in the post on top), I will gladly go back and do my civic duties to stop crime. So, how are they supposed to investigate if nobody talks? They are supposed to fight for better checks and balances, so people can start talking again.
    - dTal 6y ago
      That's not really devil's advocate, just a great example of the many corrosive effects of an untrustworthy government.
    - danShumway 6y ago
      As an analogy, Punching Jim down by the corner store punches everybody in the face who talks to him, so everyone has stopped talking to him. But how is Punching Jim supposed to fulfill his job as a therapist if his patients are constantly afraid of being punched? The answer is that Punching Jim might just be a bad therapist, and maybe it's good for therapists that punch people in the face to have fewer patients. Nobody forces the FBI to have the system they have. We could have laws that make interrogation different. We could have laws that change the consequences of accidentally lying to federal agents, that raise the legal standard for consequential lies. The FBI could get rid of the no-fly list, they could stop threatening innocent security researchers to get info. We could get rid of "gotcha" interrogation techniques that are explicitly designed to try and trick people into signing away their rights. They built this system, and nobody but them is to blame for it. If the FBI wants people to talk to them, they just need to stop punching people in the face. A lack of informants is a problem they created and that they can solve.
imroot 6y ago
I've had similar experiences, though, not with FBI, with DHS at DEFCON, to the point where I've been handed DHS business cards prior to hopping on flights out of Las Vegas on my way home, and them calling me on my personal (non-work-published) cell phone a few days later.

llaolleh 6y ago

What does the FBI offer for becoming an informant if you are a law abiding citizen?

notsureaboutpg 6y ago
They won't ruin your life. It's an offer you can't refuse.
lrvick 6y ago
They offered: "Politicians are not happy. Someone has to pay for it. If you help us we can make sure you are not that someone" And yeah, I was terrified. It was a mistake to talk to them in the first place. They got in my door by telling me they wanted my opinion on some activity they felt is a threat to a visiting president then things took a fast turn asking me about my research and contacts. FBI is 100% allowed to lie to you but if you lie back to them they own you. They also like to catch you unprepared and off guard. Don't fall for it. Say something like: "I'm sorry this is not a topic I feel well prepared to talk about right now. If you have a court order I will honor it but even then I am going to need time to collect my thoughts and ensure I am speaking accurately. I'll walk you out" Then get a lawyer to coach you on what you can and can't say. If they catch you in a lie even by accident they can -force- you to be an informant.
- viraptor 6y ago
  I'm curious, do you know what happens if you tried to make yourself useless by publicly announcing that FBI is trying to make you an informant? Has anyone tried that as a way out?
  - s5300 6y ago
    Likely obstruction of justice/some other nature of obstruction that may leave you with some pretty serious charges.
  - lrvick 6y ago
    At the time they threatened me to not tell anyone they spoke with me or unspecified bad things would happen. I am older and have spent a lot more time researching law now, and no longer choose to let strongarm chilling effects like this work. There are tons of good people in law enforcement and three letter agencies that actually protect people. I know some of them. I also know some overstep and abuse their power and it is on all of us to call it out when it happens.
- quercusa 6y ago
  Law professor James Duane reminds you: "Don't Talk to the Police" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
  - supuun 6y ago
    thank you, i really enjoyed this lecture.
- hinkley 6y ago
  > "Politicians are not happy. Someone has to pay for it. If you help us we can make sure you are not that someone" Isn't that racketeering?
  - salawat 6y ago
    Not when the government does it. The great self-referential inconsistency, if you will.
roget 6y ago
Not being set up.

anonporridge 6y ago

Could you elaborate more on why it's a bad deal?

c2h5oh 6y ago
- you will be asked/pressured to do things - to be places and talk to people you weren't planning to. Best case scenario it's at the cost of your time, worst case scenario it's at the cost of your personal safety. - you will be expected to report on what other people, including your friends, said or did. Even if they are not doing anything illegal FBI might want information to pressure them into being an informant. I wasn't in a situation like that, but I expect it would have a huge chilling effect on me - I'd start self-censoring interactions with others our of fear they mention something benign, but gray area legally that I would laugh at otherwise, but now would be required to report and get them in trouble. This wouldn't have to be something big - I'm sure at some point in time a friend of yours recommended a movie or a tv show that isn't available in your region, implying they have pirated a copy. Would your first reaction be to notify FBI?
- freeopinion 6y ago
  Just start wearing a brown shirt whenever you are around friends. Maybe they'll figure it out.
  - neolog 6y ago
    What's the brown shirt about?
    - biddit 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung colloquially called "Brownshirts"
    - rbanffy 6y ago
      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brownshirt https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brownshirt Also terrible fashion tastes.

PastaMonster 6y ago

First name basis with FBI employees and you didn't do your duty and publish all the information you have extracted from them including names and face pictures. What the hell?! FBI befriends you, that is just their way to get informants. The be your friend manipulation. They are trained to manipulate you. You fell for it hard!

jkaplowitz 6y ago
I'm guessing publishing that information would create exposure to federal criminal charges of endangering FBI agents (not sure of the exact name of the charge). Then the FBI really would have leverage to either gain a new informant for as long as the statute of limitations lasts or throw the researcher in prison with a criminal record.
busterarm 6y ago
If you think doxxing low ranking federal law enforcement for the high crime of doing their job is _your duty_, then I don't have much to say to you. Antagonizing your government over low stakes is not freedom fighting. You can be civil with people who don't share the same agenda as you. Shocking thought in today's society, I guess.
- twirlock 6y ago
  Some people are not worthy of respect. If I were in a gang, and I wanted to be respected by people who aren't scumbags or afraid of me, I would quit the gang.
- roget 6y ago
  They are terrorists, the agents of an occupational government. They should be exposed and punished.

proffan 6y ago

I know others who are in exactly the same situation (DEFCON connections). Astonished to see that it is that common.

nuisance-bear 6y ago
Robert Graham (eratasec) told a story that they threatened to falsely taint his security clearance if he didn't cancel a DEFCON talk.
- PastaMonster 6y ago
  And they got their way if my memory doesn't fail me. DEFCON talk was cancelled.
  - TylerLives 6y ago
    What was the topic of the talk?
    - WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
      I couldn't find out. This is as close as I came. "I had the FBI come threaten me to stop a talk that isn't as scary as 20 SCADA bugs," Graham says. ref: https://www.darkreading.com/vulnerabilities---threats/power-plant-hack-talk-free-tools-pulled-from-def-con-lineup/d/d-id/1138125 https://www.darkreading.com/vulnerabilities---threats/power-... (2012)

dccoolgai 6y ago

I feel like this is a good time to remind you, and everyone: never talk to federal agents. FBI, Fish and Game, Secret Service. Don't. They can say you told them anything, and guess what? It's a felony to lie to them. They will push a pre-written statement in front of you and if you refuse to sign it they will threaten you with saying you lied to them. Don't. Talk. To. Feds. Ever.

WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
> Don't. Talk. To. Feds. Ever. This is the lesson I learned to teach to my kids. I didn't get to this complete turnaround easily. It took years of systemic, post-911 malfeasance (and endless accompanying lies) by pretty much every fed LEO/IC agency, to nurture this mindset in me.
- wildmanx 6y ago
  Let me play the devils advocate here.. How are they supposed to investigate crime if nobody talks to them?
  - 317070 6y ago
    I speak for myself here, but it is not that I would recommend against talking in principle. Only, in practice the system is set up for talking to be universally a bad idea. If the system puts in place some better checks and balances for people to fight abuses (as the one in the post on top), I will gladly go back and do my civic duties to stop crime. So, how are they supposed to investigate if nobody talks? They are supposed to fight for better checks and balances, so people can start talking again.
  - dTal 6y ago
    That's not really devil's advocate, just a great example of the many corrosive effects of an untrustworthy government.
  - danShumway 6y ago
    As an analogy, Punching Jim down by the corner store punches everybody in the face who talks to him, so everyone has stopped talking to him. But how is Punching Jim supposed to fulfill his job as a therapist if his patients are constantly afraid of being punched? The answer is that Punching Jim might just be a bad therapist, and maybe it's good for therapists that punch people in the face to have fewer patients. Nobody forces the FBI to have the system they have. We could have laws that make interrogation different. We could have laws that change the consequences of accidentally lying to federal agents, that raise the legal standard for consequential lies. The FBI could get rid of the no-fly list, they could stop threatening innocent security researchers to get info. We could get rid of "gotcha" interrogation techniques that are explicitly designed to try and trick people into signing away their rights. They built this system, and nobody but them is to blame for it. If the FBI wants people to talk to them, they just need to stop punching people in the face. A lack of informants is a problem they created and that they can solve.

imroot 6y ago

I've had similar experiences, though, not with FBI, with DHS at DEFCON, to the point where I've been handed DHS business cards prior to hopping on flights out of Las Vegas on my way home, and them calling me on my personal (non-work-published) cell phone a few days later.