5 ms·

The no fly list seems to be clearly unconstitutional. You can't find out why you are on it, you can ask for redress but you have no legal ability to file action

The no fly list seems to be clearly unconstitutional. You can't find out why you are on it, you can ask for redress but you have no legal ability to file actions on it apparently. You cannot ever overcome it because it is the magic "national security". For us citizens especially, why can I travel anywhere via any normal legal means? If I'm dangerous on an airplane and you can legally stop me from doing it, it seems it's another obvious extension to say I can't ride on a bus, a boat, drive a car? There must be a good reason the no fly list has not come to the us supreme court - probably because the govt delays and then folds if anyone has a compelling case. But it must come to trial! I know there are dangerous terrorists in the world that want to kill me, and I don't want to enable them. But there's a lot more people on the no fly list in the us for very dubious considerations (probably, the number must be a secret too).

yaur 6y ago
I would speculate that they are pretty quick to take citizens off the list as soon as they lawyer up, rendering any case that could get the whole thing thrown out moot.
cortesoft 6y ago
Yes...in fact, the ACLU has already file lawsuits about this nearly 10 years ago... and won. And yet here we are, with it still going on. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/federal-court-sides-aclu-no-fly-list-lawsuit https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/federal-court-sides-aclu...
penultimatename 6y ago
What makes you think the no-fly list is unconstitutional? The Supreme Court doesn't take cases because a law is unfair, they take cases that violate the Constitution or written law. The Court has routinely deemed "national security" concerns as a valid reason for laws to exist, so long as those concerns aren't just makeup for a more discriminatory reasoning.
- lacker 6y ago
  Some of the processes around the no-fly list have been declared unconstitutional before. For example: https://aclu-or.org/en/cases/court-rules-no-fly-list-process-unconstitutional-and-must-be-reformed-0 https://aclu-or.org/en/cases/court-rules-no-fly-list-process... IANAL but it would not surprise me if the courts further restricted the ability of law enforcement to arbitrarily modify the no-fly list in the future.
  - penultimatename 6y ago
    The processes around reporting were deemed unconstitutional, not actually putting someone on a list. The government slightly improved the process and would actually tell people if they were on the list, which was enough to satisfy the courts. After that the ACLU lost their follow-up suits and appeals.
    - NotSammyHagar 6y ago
      I feel like the general concept should be disallowed. They aren't blocking people (based on the public cases) who are imminently expected to kill someone or blow up a plane by sneaking something on it. There are a million people on the list, there are not a million attempts to blow up planes, even in 10 years there are probably only a few. Why not disallow questionable people from using the internet, cell phones, driving cars, walking in public? You can destroy someone's opportunity to be part of the world, work in most companies, etc see their family or children with these choices. Therefore, I think because these are not criminal claims and are not substantiated as imminent threats they are against their liberty.
notsureaboutpg 6y ago
You can get put on a "kill list" as well as the "no fly list" even if you are a US citizen and the opacity and inability to remove oneself or correct the issue is the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilal_Abdul_Kareem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilal_Abdul_Kareem
- NotSammyHagar 6y ago
  good point, that's another terrible overreach. It was surprising how much obama in particular was involved with choosing people to be killed with drones. https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-final-drone-strike-data https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-final-drone-strike-data
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    While the kill list was still unconstitutional, arguably a war crime, and just an evil practice, requiring Obama's approval to be put on the kill list is marginally better than Trump who removed presidential oversight and let the CIA do as they please. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-killings-count/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-kill...
stjohnswarts 6y ago
It isn't unconstitutional since you don't have a right to fly since it's a private endeavour, even though it's highly regulated. Clearly the are abusing it as punitive rather than preventative measure. it's stupid in this case that it's being used as a punishment for no good reason. Congress need to address this and give a much better definition for what can be used to "put you on the no fly list"
- betterunix2 6y ago
  ...or the courts need to wake up to the reality of life in the modern world, where being denied the ability to board an airplane can result in harm to a person's personal and professional life. My boss is great but there is no way he is approving a 5 day trip on Amtrak for my next in-person meeting in California, let alone weeks of travel by boat for the next conference in Europe or Asia (assuming these things resume after the pandemic). I have met people whose entire career would be destroyed if they could not fly freely and frequently. If the courts are not prepared to rule the no-fly list unconstitutional, then they need to start awarding damages to people who have been placed on the list. Either the government proves in court that there was a legitimate reason to prevent a person from flying or they compensate that person for all the harm that ensues.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  >since you don't have a right to fly We are still being deprived of our liberty without due process, making it unconstitutional.
- frostwhale 6y ago
  You are wrong the courts have ruled it is unconstitutional. You have a right to fly. There is no due process here. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/federal-court-sides-aclu-no-fly-list-lawsuit https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/federal-court-sides-aclu...

yaur 6y ago

I would speculate that they are pretty quick to take citizens off the list as soon as they lawyer up, rendering any case that could get the whole thing thrown out moot.

cortesoft 6y ago

Yes...in fact, the ACLU has already file lawsuits about this nearly 10 years ago... and won. And yet here we are, with it still going on. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/federal-court-sides-aclu-no-fly-list-lawsuit https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/federal-court-sides-aclu...

penultimatename 6y ago

What makes you think the no-fly list is unconstitutional? The Supreme Court doesn't take cases because a law is unfair, they take cases that violate the Constitution or written law. The Court has routinely deemed "national security" concerns as a valid reason for laws to exist, so long as those concerns aren't just makeup for a more discriminatory reasoning.

lacker 6y ago
Some of the processes around the no-fly list have been declared unconstitutional before. For example: https://aclu-or.org/en/cases/court-rules-no-fly-list-process-unconstitutional-and-must-be-reformed-0 https://aclu-or.org/en/cases/court-rules-no-fly-list-process... IANAL but it would not surprise me if the courts further restricted the ability of law enforcement to arbitrarily modify the no-fly list in the future.
- penultimatename 6y ago
  The processes around reporting were deemed unconstitutional, not actually putting someone on a list. The government slightly improved the process and would actually tell people if they were on the list, which was enough to satisfy the courts. After that the ACLU lost their follow-up suits and appeals.
  - NotSammyHagar 6y ago
    I feel like the general concept should be disallowed. They aren't blocking people (based on the public cases) who are imminently expected to kill someone or blow up a plane by sneaking something on it. There are a million people on the list, there are not a million attempts to blow up planes, even in 10 years there are probably only a few. Why not disallow questionable people from using the internet, cell phones, driving cars, walking in public? You can destroy someone's opportunity to be part of the world, work in most companies, etc see their family or children with these choices. Therefore, I think because these are not criminal claims and are not substantiated as imminent threats they are against their liberty.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago

You can get put on a "kill list" as well as the "no fly list" even if you are a US citizen and the opacity and inability to remove oneself or correct the issue is the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilal_Abdul_Kareem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilal_Abdul_Kareem

NotSammyHagar 6y ago
good point, that's another terrible overreach. It was surprising how much obama in particular was involved with choosing people to be killed with drones. https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-final-drone-strike-data https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-final-drone-strike-data
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  While the kill list was still unconstitutional, arguably a war crime, and just an evil practice, requiring Obama's approval to be put on the kill list is marginally better than Trump who removed presidential oversight and let the CIA do as they please. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-killings-count/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-kill...

stjohnswarts 6y ago

It isn't unconstitutional since you don't have a right to fly since it's a private endeavour, even though it's highly regulated. Clearly the are abusing it as punitive rather than preventative measure. it's stupid in this case that it's being used as a punishment for no good reason. Congress need to address this and give a much better definition for what can be used to "put you on the no fly list"

betterunix2 6y ago
...or the courts need to wake up to the reality of life in the modern world, where being denied the ability to board an airplane can result in harm to a person's personal and professional life. My boss is great but there is no way he is approving a 5 day trip on Amtrak for my next in-person meeting in California, let alone weeks of travel by boat for the next conference in Europe or Asia (assuming these things resume after the pandemic). I have met people whose entire career would be destroyed if they could not fly freely and frequently. If the courts are not prepared to rule the no-fly list unconstitutional, then they need to start awarding damages to people who have been placed on the list. Either the government proves in court that there was a legitimate reason to prevent a person from flying or they compensate that person for all the harm that ensues.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
>since you don't have a right to fly We are still being deprived of our liberty without due process, making it unconstitutional.
frostwhale 6y ago
You are wrong the courts have ruled it is unconstitutional. You have a right to fly. There is no due process here. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/federal-court-sides-aclu-no-fly-list-lawsuit https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/federal-court-sides-aclu...