7 ms·

I suggest you avoid blaming the victim. This person though they lived in the freedom country and got East Germany, they were taken by surprise. Moreover an Arab

I suggest you avoid blaming the victim. This person though they lived in the freedom country and got East Germany, they were taken by surprise. Moreover an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition.

totalZero 6y ago
> an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition. The Sixth Amendment guarantees adequate representation. Being accused of a crime by the FBI would qualify as a situation where that representation could be reasonably required if requested by the accused. Arab or not, citizen or not.
Cederfjard 6y ago
I didn't read it as blaming Ahmad, rather a reminder that you should have a lawyer present when dealing with law enforcement if possible, because it always comes with the risk of very grave consequences regardless of your innocence. I'm neither in the US nor Arabic, but your second sentence sounds very problematic. How does this manifest? A person would say that they would like to speak to a lawyer, and then get ignored? Harassed until they relent?
- ub99 6y ago
  A little bit off topic, but how does that work in practice? How do I find a lawyer instantly? Do Americans generally have a lawyer contact just in case?
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    I’d like to know this, too! You always hear that phrase: “call your lawyer!” I don’t have a lawyer. I hardly even know any lawyers. I think one of my friend’s wife is a family law attorney but who knows? Chances are, if I’m ever in a situation where I need a lawyer, the Yellow Pages won’t be handy. So how does this even work?
    - mindslight 6y ago
      Any paperwork professional (eg accountant, realtor, other type of attorney) will be happy to refer you to an appropriate attorney because they'll make a referral fee off of it. Whether that attorney is any good is another question. However, generally all attorneys are decent at supplying impersonal "default no" answers, which is most of what you really need at first. The bigger issue is that you'll then be paying at least $300/hour for their services. So now you're burning money to have this conversation just so the FBI can fantasize about being heroes. Don't talk to the police without an attorney is good baseline advice, but also misses the mark in many ways. Any way you look at it, getting into government crosshairs (whether it's merely civil questioning or a literal gunsight while being used for target practice) is a perverse reverse lottery that survives because of regressive politics and the just world fallacy. And this won't change until there is reform that fully compensates suspects/witnesses/etc for their time, expenses, and other damages incurred as a result of erroneous law enforcement. FWIW as much as I hate the term, having a relationship with an attorney that you could call for urgent representation is a form of privilege.
  - hankh18 6y ago
    Not really. Most people wouldn't typically have a criminal defense lawyer in their phone unless they were accused of something in the past. Invoking your right to an attorney basically just means the law enforcement officers have to stop interrogating you until you've either found a private lawyer, or been assigned a public defender.
  - nraynaud 6y ago
    hahah, a lawyer of which bar (today was federal) and specialized in which area of law again? "call a layer" doesn't just suppose you have their phone number, but that you have the on a retainer, because without being arrested, there is no emergency representation procedure for you. edit I'm laughing at the impracticality of it all, but it's unhelpful, here is the deal : if really you think it's lawyer time, call a random lawyer of your family or business, anybody with a bar exam, and they will refer you to a co-worker of their best guess your case is about. And also, if you call right there in front of the police, you have forfeited your client-attorney privilege because you purposefully placed your call in front of a third party (crap, I went cynical again).
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - danaliv 6y ago
    You don’t. You tell them you won’t be talking to them without a lawyer, and they have to drop it until you find one. They can’t demand that you magically produce a lawyer on the spot.
thelean12 6y ago
You can still make mistakes while not being to blame. Pointing out those mistakes doesn't change the fact that they're the victim, but it might help them or someone else later. If I leave my car unlocked with an iphone on the dashboard and it gets stolen, I made a mistake, but I'm not to blame.
RHSeeger 6y ago
Giving advice that people may want to know/follow is not victim blaming. It is trying to be helpful to people that come after, by providing advice that may help avoid this type of event. Saying "this person would have been safer had they acted in this way" does not automatically mean "this person did something they should have known not to".
nafizh 6y ago
Minute nitpicking. It's Arab. Arabic is the language.
- nraynaud 6y ago
  oops, sorry
adriancr 6y ago
> Moreover an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition. Why? just say you want to call a lawyer and have him present. Any deal would have to be made with lawyer present, no objections, polite. And call one anyway first point its possible. Now, being an informant might be degrading but if you have genuine threats that you can help with, might as well cover all options.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  > Why? just say you want to call a lawyer and have him present. Ok let’s go down this route. You say that and then they hand you a phone. Now what? You’re in an empty room, no internet access, no Yellow Pages nearby. What numbers do you press on the phone? I don’t even know a lawyer, let alone have one’s number memorized. That would really be a “they called your bluff” moment.
  - adriancr 6y ago
    You have your own phone, you are not arrested / have your stuff seized in this situation. Even then they would notify your family. Call a friend / wife / parents - hey can you please find me a lawyer and call back - need him at address ... Then they search and find someone and you shut up until one arrives. (most likely police/fbi will reschedule) Helps if you actually have a social network, I have quite a few lawyer friends who would be present almost instantly or find someone willing fast.
  - danaliv 6y ago
    They can’t force you to produce a lawyer on the spot, and they can’t force you to call one in front of them. Your conversations with lawyers are secret and the police aren’t allowed to know anything about what you talk about. They have to reschedule the interview.
max1984_2 6y ago
Unfortunately people have to get an important idea in their head. The police are not there to help you for the most part. In the UK we call the Police the filth for good reason. Law enforcement's job is to incriminate you. They are not there to "protect and serve" that is just marketing. That isn't true of every police officer and isn't true of every police force, but it is safest to assume that it is the truth. If law enforcement are "wanting to chat" that means they are trying to push something on you. You don't tell them anything, you ask for legal representation and the answer to every question should be "no comment". Anything you tell them will be used against you in the court room. It shouldn't be that way. But unfortunately that is the truth.

totalZero 6y ago

> an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition. The Sixth Amendment guarantees adequate representation. Being accused of a crime by the FBI would qualify as a situation where that representation could be reasonably required if requested by the accused. Arab or not, citizen or not.

Cederfjard 6y ago

I didn't read it as blaming Ahmad, rather a reminder that you should have a lawyer present when dealing with law enforcement if possible, because it always comes with the risk of very grave consequences regardless of your innocence. I'm neither in the US nor Arabic, but your second sentence sounds very problematic. How does this manifest? A person would say that they would like to speak to a lawyer, and then get ignored? Harassed until they relent?

ub99 6y ago
A little bit off topic, but how does that work in practice? How do I find a lawyer instantly? Do Americans generally have a lawyer contact just in case?
- ryandrake 6y ago
  I’d like to know this, too! You always hear that phrase: “call your lawyer!” I don’t have a lawyer. I hardly even know any lawyers. I think one of my friend’s wife is a family law attorney but who knows? Chances are, if I’m ever in a situation where I need a lawyer, the Yellow Pages won’t be handy. So how does this even work?
  - mindslight 6y ago
    Any paperwork professional (eg accountant, realtor, other type of attorney) will be happy to refer you to an appropriate attorney because they'll make a referral fee off of it. Whether that attorney is any good is another question. However, generally all attorneys are decent at supplying impersonal "default no" answers, which is most of what you really need at first. The bigger issue is that you'll then be paying at least $300/hour for their services. So now you're burning money to have this conversation just so the FBI can fantasize about being heroes. Don't talk to the police without an attorney is good baseline advice, but also misses the mark in many ways. Any way you look at it, getting into government crosshairs (whether it's merely civil questioning or a literal gunsight while being used for target practice) is a perverse reverse lottery that survives because of regressive politics and the just world fallacy. And this won't change until there is reform that fully compensates suspects/witnesses/etc for their time, expenses, and other damages incurred as a result of erroneous law enforcement. FWIW as much as I hate the term, having a relationship with an attorney that you could call for urgent representation is a form of privilege.
- hankh18 6y ago
  Not really. Most people wouldn't typically have a criminal defense lawyer in their phone unless they were accused of something in the past. Invoking your right to an attorney basically just means the law enforcement officers have to stop interrogating you until you've either found a private lawyer, or been assigned a public defender.
- nraynaud 6y ago
  hahah, a lawyer of which bar (today was federal) and specialized in which area of law again? "call a layer" doesn't just suppose you have their phone number, but that you have the on a retainer, because without being arrested, there is no emergency representation procedure for you. edit I'm laughing at the impracticality of it all, but it's unhelpful, here is the deal : if really you think it's lawyer time, call a random lawyer of your family or business, anybody with a bar exam, and they will refer you to a co-worker of their best guess your case is about. And also, if you call right there in front of the police, you have forfeited your client-attorney privilege because you purposefully placed your call in front of a third party (crap, I went cynical again).
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- danaliv 6y ago
  You don’t. You tell them you won’t be talking to them without a lawyer, and they have to drop it until you find one. They can’t demand that you magically produce a lawyer on the spot.

thelean12 6y ago

You can still make mistakes while not being to blame. Pointing out those mistakes doesn't change the fact that they're the victim, but it might help them or someone else later. If I leave my car unlocked with an iphone on the dashboard and it gets stolen, I made a mistake, but I'm not to blame.

RHSeeger 6y ago

Giving advice that people may want to know/follow is not victim blaming. It is trying to be helpful to people that come after, by providing advice that may help avoid this type of event. Saying "this person would have been safer had they acted in this way" does not automatically mean "this person did something they should have known not to".

nafizh 6y ago

Minute nitpicking. It's Arab. Arabic is the language.

nraynaud 6y ago
oops, sorry

adriancr 6y ago

> Moreover an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition. Why? just say you want to call a lawyer and have him present. Any deal would have to be made with lawyer present, no objections, polite. And call one anyway first point its possible. Now, being an informant might be degrading but if you have genuine threats that you can help with, might as well cover all options.

ryandrake 6y ago
> Why? just say you want to call a lawyer and have him present. Ok let’s go down this route. You say that and then they hand you a phone. Now what? You’re in an empty room, no internet access, no Yellow Pages nearby. What numbers do you press on the phone? I don’t even know a lawyer, let alone have one’s number memorized. That would really be a “they called your bluff” moment.
- adriancr 6y ago
  You have your own phone, you are not arrested / have your stuff seized in this situation. Even then they would notify your family. Call a friend / wife / parents - hey can you please find me a lawyer and call back - need him at address ... Then they search and find someone and you shut up until one arrives. (most likely police/fbi will reschedule) Helps if you actually have a social network, I have quite a few lawyer friends who would be present almost instantly or find someone willing fast.
- danaliv 6y ago
  They can’t force you to produce a lawyer on the spot, and they can’t force you to call one in front of them. Your conversations with lawyers are secret and the police aren’t allowed to know anything about what you talk about. They have to reschedule the interview.

max1984_2 6y ago

Unfortunately people have to get an important idea in their head. The police are not there to help you for the most part. In the UK we call the Police the filth for good reason. Law enforcement's job is to incriminate you. They are not there to "protect and serve" that is just marketing. That isn't true of every police officer and isn't true of every police force, but it is safest to assume that it is the truth. If law enforcement are "wanting to chat" that means they are trying to push something on you. You don't tell them anything, you ask for legal representation and the answer to every question should be "no comment". Anything you tell them will be used against you in the court room. It shouldn't be that way. But unfortunately that is the truth.