8 ms·

This is why you want a lawyer present in any discussions such as this, false pretenses, FBI questioning you... yeah... "lawyer"

danaliv 6y ago
Probably would’ve still been harassed and wound up on the no-fly list, but yes, if the FBI tricks you into meeting them, walk away.
- goostavos 6y ago
  That's super easy to say. Personally, I know I'd be scared shitless if I ended up in a room, under false pretenses, with the door closed, and government agents questioning if I'm an enemy of the state. I doubt I'd have the presence of mind to just 'walk away' from the FBI.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - danaliv 6y ago
    I'm not just saying it, I've done it. Someone else in this thread has too.
  - adriancr 6y ago
    I'd be scared too, still, I'd say I need to consult a lawyer and have one present, otherwise I'm not saying anything or even listening to them... If you are in such a situation you are already in trouble due to power imbalance. In other places where you can't get a lawyer / have friends high up you might as well play along...
nraynaud 6y ago
I suggest you avoid blaming the victim. This person though they lived in the freedom country and got East Germany, they were taken by surprise. Moreover an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition.
- totalZero 6y ago
  > an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition. The Sixth Amendment guarantees adequate representation. Being accused of a crime by the FBI would qualify as a situation where that representation could be reasonably required if requested by the accused. Arab or not, citizen or not.
- Cederfjard 6y ago
  I didn't read it as blaming Ahmad, rather a reminder that you should have a lawyer present when dealing with law enforcement if possible, because it always comes with the risk of very grave consequences regardless of your innocence. I'm neither in the US nor Arabic, but your second sentence sounds very problematic. How does this manifest? A person would say that they would like to speak to a lawyer, and then get ignored? Harassed until they relent?
  - ub99 6y ago
    A little bit off topic, but how does that work in practice? How do I find a lawyer instantly? Do Americans generally have a lawyer contact just in case?
    - ryandrake 6y ago
      I’d like to know this, too! You always hear that phrase: “call your lawyer!” I don’t have a lawyer. I hardly even know any lawyers. I think one of my friend’s wife is a family law attorney but who knows? Chances are, if I’m ever in a situation where I need a lawyer, the Yellow Pages won’t be handy. So how does this even work?
      - mindslight 6y ago
        Any paperwork professional (eg accountant, realtor, other type of attorney) will be happy to refer you to an appropriate attorney because they'll make a referral fee off of it. Whether that attorney is any good is another question. However, generally all attorneys are decent at supplying impersonal "default no" answers, which is most of what you really need at first. The bigger issue is that you'll then be paying at least $300/hour for their services. So now you're burning money to have this conversation just so the FBI can fantasize about being heroes. Don't talk to the police without an attorney is good baseline advice, but also misses the mark in many ways. Any way you look at it, getting into government crosshairs (whether it's merely civil questioning or a literal gunsight while being used for target practice) is a perverse reverse lottery that survives because of regressive politics and the just world fallacy. And this won't change until there is reform that fully compensates suspects/witnesses/etc for their time, expenses, and other damages incurred as a result of erroneous law enforcement. FWIW as much as I hate the term, having a relationship with an attorney that you could call for urgent representation is a form of privilege.
babelfish 6y ago
The person in the article did not know they were going to be questioned by the FBI - they were told they had a "permit issue" at City Hall and were ambushed by the FBI there.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  At some point, it became clear that the FBI was questioning them, right? That's the point where you decline to answer without consulting counsel. You don't have to bring a lawyer with you on every errand just in case it's a trap.
- bruiseralmighty 6y ago
  While I agree with the sentiment that no one can be prepared for an FBI ambush every day of their lives. This is a teachable moment. Law enforcement often use tactics like this to convince citizens to voluntarily testify against themselves. It's not fair as the tactic preys on our natural desire to help. But it's important to train ourselves into the mindset that if you are talking with uniformed law enforcement, then you are being interviewed by them. To whit, if you are being interviewed by law enforcement, your best option is to never answer any of their questions and repeatedly ask to leave. If you are not able to leave then you switch to repeatedly asking for your lawyer.
  - pydry 6y ago
    This echoes all of the times I've been taught how to "deal" with corrupt cops in third world countries (e.g. when to bribe & how much, how to not look "rich" and attract a shakedown, etc.). This isn't something you ought to have to learn in a free and just society, just as you shouldn't have to know the going rate for a police officer in your town.
    - bruiseralmighty 6y ago
      I actually agree with you. There is a lot of talk about the disparity of justice in America and how we are not actually so free after all. I believe most of this feels good to say because we know its true, but after we leave the seminar we go back to a standard civilian mindset. What I mean is that we walk and talk out in the world like America is just and the police will be fair with you; it is only when we sit down and examine the system that we realize intellectually that this is not the case. But this epiphany fails to carry down to the reptile brain once we stand up again. Changing that "walking around" mindset is the first step of self-defense training. It is necessary when dealing with American law-enforcement. Although I agree that it ought not to be.
cortesoft 6y ago
What if you are poor? You won’t be provided with a lawyer, since they aren’t accusing him of a crime. Most people can’t afford to hire a lawyer for something like this.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  Then you decline to answer any questions without the advice of counsel. They can choose to arrest you or let you go, but they can't compel you to answer their questions without advice of counsel if you invoke that request.
  - cortesoft 6y ago
    Did you read what happened here? He refused to cooperate, and they put him on the no fly list. They didn’t charge him with any crimes, so they don’t have to worry about any testimony being inadmissible. You are right, they can’t arrest him... which they didn’t try to do. They did something way worse, which was to put him on the no fly list and strand him out of country. Avoiding being arrested was not the problem. This isn’t an investigator trying to get information to bring to court, this is the FBI trying to coerce the guy into being an informant. They don’t care about his actual testimony at this point.
    - adriancr 6y ago
      He did not consult with anyone even after threats... Instead he sent his family to lebannon and flew there himself. Would have been cheaper just to lawyer up... Lawyer should be able to help at least track down which agents did this, call bureau to confirm investigation and complain if things are sketchy, help avoid the no fly list or help get you off it... advice...
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  By saying that you want a lawyer, it makes the results of interrogations without a lawyer very hard to use in court. If you're dealing with investigators that know the law and want a conviction, they'll hold off on questions until a lawyer is present. If you can't get a lawyer to be present, then that's a potential impasse.

danaliv 6y ago

Probably would’ve still been harassed and wound up on the no-fly list, but yes, if the FBI tricks you into meeting them, walk away.

goostavos 6y ago
That's super easy to say. Personally, I know I'd be scared shitless if I ended up in a room, under false pretenses, with the door closed, and government agents questioning if I'm an enemy of the state. I doubt I'd have the presence of mind to just 'walk away' from the FBI.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- danaliv 6y ago
  I'm not just saying it, I've done it. Someone else in this thread has too.
- adriancr 6y ago
  I'd be scared too, still, I'd say I need to consult a lawyer and have one present, otherwise I'm not saying anything or even listening to them... If you are in such a situation you are already in trouble due to power imbalance. In other places where you can't get a lawyer / have friends high up you might as well play along...

nraynaud 6y ago

I suggest you avoid blaming the victim. This person though they lived in the freedom country and got East Germany, they were taken by surprise. Moreover an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition.

totalZero 6y ago
> an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition. The Sixth Amendment guarantees adequate representation. Being accused of a crime by the FBI would qualify as a situation where that representation could be reasonably required if requested by the accused. Arab or not, citizen or not.
Cederfjard 6y ago
I didn't read it as blaming Ahmad, rather a reminder that you should have a lawyer present when dealing with law enforcement if possible, because it always comes with the risk of very grave consequences regardless of your innocence. I'm neither in the US nor Arabic, but your second sentence sounds very problematic. How does this manifest? A person would say that they would like to speak to a lawyer, and then get ignored? Harassed until they relent?
- ub99 6y ago
  A little bit off topic, but how does that work in practice? How do I find a lawyer instantly? Do Americans generally have a lawyer contact just in case?
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    I’d like to know this, too! You always hear that phrase: “call your lawyer!” I don’t have a lawyer. I hardly even know any lawyers. I think one of my friend’s wife is a family law attorney but who knows? Chances are, if I’m ever in a situation where I need a lawyer, the Yellow Pages won’t be handy. So how does this even work?
    - mindslight 6y ago
      Any paperwork professional (eg accountant, realtor, other type of attorney) will be happy to refer you to an appropriate attorney because they'll make a referral fee off of it. Whether that attorney is any good is another question. However, generally all attorneys are decent at supplying impersonal "default no" answers, which is most of what you really need at first. The bigger issue is that you'll then be paying at least $300/hour for their services. So now you're burning money to have this conversation just so the FBI can fantasize about being heroes. Don't talk to the police without an attorney is good baseline advice, but also misses the mark in many ways. Any way you look at it, getting into government crosshairs (whether it's merely civil questioning or a literal gunsight while being used for target practice) is a perverse reverse lottery that survives because of regressive politics and the just world fallacy. And this won't change until there is reform that fully compensates suspects/witnesses/etc for their time, expenses, and other damages incurred as a result of erroneous law enforcement. FWIW as much as I hate the term, having a relationship with an attorney that you could call for urgent representation is a form of privilege.

babelfish 6y ago

The person in the article did not know they were going to be questioned by the FBI - they were told they had a "permit issue" at City Hall and were ambushed by the FBI there.

sokoloff 6y ago
At some point, it became clear that the FBI was questioning them, right? That's the point where you decline to answer without consulting counsel. You don't have to bring a lawyer with you on every errand just in case it's a trap.
bruiseralmighty 6y ago
While I agree with the sentiment that no one can be prepared for an FBI ambush every day of their lives. This is a teachable moment. Law enforcement often use tactics like this to convince citizens to voluntarily testify against themselves. It's not fair as the tactic preys on our natural desire to help. But it's important to train ourselves into the mindset that if you are talking with uniformed law enforcement, then you are being interviewed by them. To whit, if you are being interviewed by law enforcement, your best option is to never answer any of their questions and repeatedly ask to leave. If you are not able to leave then you switch to repeatedly asking for your lawyer.
- pydry 6y ago
  This echoes all of the times I've been taught how to "deal" with corrupt cops in third world countries (e.g. when to bribe & how much, how to not look "rich" and attract a shakedown, etc.). This isn't something you ought to have to learn in a free and just society, just as you shouldn't have to know the going rate for a police officer in your town.
  - bruiseralmighty 6y ago
    I actually agree with you. There is a lot of talk about the disparity of justice in America and how we are not actually so free after all. I believe most of this feels good to say because we know its true, but after we leave the seminar we go back to a standard civilian mindset. What I mean is that we walk and talk out in the world like America is just and the police will be fair with you; it is only when we sit down and examine the system that we realize intellectually that this is not the case. But this epiphany fails to carry down to the reptile brain once we stand up again. Changing that "walking around" mindset is the first step of self-defense training. It is necessary when dealing with American law-enforcement. Although I agree that it ought not to be.

cortesoft 6y ago

What if you are poor? You won’t be provided with a lawyer, since they aren’t accusing him of a crime. Most people can’t afford to hire a lawyer for something like this.

sokoloff 6y ago
Then you decline to answer any questions without the advice of counsel. They can choose to arrest you or let you go, but they can't compel you to answer their questions without advice of counsel if you invoke that request.
- cortesoft 6y ago
  Did you read what happened here? He refused to cooperate, and they put him on the no fly list. They didn’t charge him with any crimes, so they don’t have to worry about any testimony being inadmissible. You are right, they can’t arrest him... which they didn’t try to do. They did something way worse, which was to put him on the no fly list and strand him out of country. Avoiding being arrested was not the problem. This isn’t an investigator trying to get information to bring to court, this is the FBI trying to coerce the guy into being an informant. They don’t care about his actual testimony at this point.
  - adriancr 6y ago
    He did not consult with anyone even after threats... Instead he sent his family to lebannon and flew there himself. Would have been cheaper just to lawyer up... Lawyer should be able to help at least track down which agents did this, call bureau to confirm investigation and complain if things are sketchy, help avoid the no fly list or help get you off it... advice...
heavyset_go 6y ago
By saying that you want a lawyer, it makes the results of interrogations without a lawyer very hard to use in court. If you're dealing with investigators that know the law and want a conviction, they'll hold off on questions until a lawyer is present. If you can't get a lawyer to be present, then that's a potential impasse.