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It’s not about arguments, it’s about educating yourself on the topic before making definitive conclusions. Bringing up telemarketing and spam when we talk abou

It’s not about arguments, it’s about educating yourself on the topic before making definitive conclusions. Bringing up telemarketing and spam when we talk about advertising is as relevant as bringing ransomware as an argument against encryption.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jacobolus 6y ago
What do you think the difference is between telemarketing and other forms of advertising that makes comparing them an expression of total ignorance, worthy of gratuitous insults? The premise of both is forcing people’s attention to focus on an unsolicited message as a way of manipulating them into doing something they would not otherwise do or buy something they would not otherwise buy. Spreading those manipulative messages through phone calls or paper mail does not seem to be fundamentally different than spreading them through interstitial television clips, magazine pages, billboards, spam emails, or website popups. All of these delivery mechanisms are ugly, unpleasant, and typically exploitative. Personally I find e.g. Facebook and Google’s panopticon-driven advertising empires to be more ethically problematic than many kinds of telemarketing and junk mail. Facebook in particular has caused more concrete harm in the world than any telemarketing firm.
- justapassenger 6y ago
  Why is me telling you about a product I’ve created, or service I offer exploitative? Are 100% of products you use in your life, products and services that you’d know about their existence and value they can provide to you without any form of advertising? If my aunt opens a hair salon and buys ads to get potential customers to come and try her service making world a worse place? What if I build new app, that helps to solve child sleeping problems for new parents - i should just hope they stumble upon it by accident, and God forbids try to advertise to new parents? I’m not arguing there isn’t lots of crap in advertising market, or that big tech ads don’t have problems. But ads are much more complex, and it serves much more use cases than typical “let’s kill all ads with fire” person on HN is aware of. For big chunk of them their only expertise in ads ecosystem is installing Adblock.
  - jacobolus 6y ago
    You dodged the question. What do you think the fundamental difference is between your aunt leaving doorknob flyers, cold-calling neighbors at dinnertime, sending spam emails, buying TV ad slots in the local news program, putting up a billboard on the highway, or buying targeted facebook ads? Do you think there is a fundamental difference between your aunt’s salon and someone selling candy to kids, encouraging people to ask their doctor about a named pharmaceutical, describing a casino’s slot machines, soliciting donations to a megachurch, talking up penny stocks, presenting jingoistic propaganda, making unfounded accusations about a political rival, or describing a phone sex hotline? Where do you draw the line between advertising that you consider beneficial (or ethical) vs. not?
    - justapassenger 6y ago
      Of course there’s fundamental difference between all those things you’re describing, and you’re arguing in dishonest way if you pretend not to see it. I’m not arguing there aren’t bad uses of advertising, or bad channels to do it. I’m arguing this is very complex space that you cannot just simplify to few anecdotes and claim that based on it proves it’s detrimental to society and should be destroyed. There’s no point in continuing this conversation, bye.
      - jacobolus 6y ago
        Your answer to the question was another dodge + more gratuitous insults. So I guess we can all agree we are done here.
cwkoss 6y ago
Telemarketing and spam are advertising. It's all the same game as digital advertising, just different mediums. Your hostility to the idea that advertising is a net societal ill reminds me of the quote, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
- justapassenger 6y ago
  I’m not arguing they aren’t form of advertising. Same as ransomware is a form of encryption. Should we ban encryption, because it’s being used for bad things as well? I’m also not hostile to an idea that advertising maybe net negative. I’d love to see a study that shows that. But I’m very septic about someone bringing that idea as a given truth, while they lack even most basic knowledge about advertising.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jacobolus 6y ago

What do you think the difference is between telemarketing and other forms of advertising that makes comparing them an expression of total ignorance, worthy of gratuitous insults? The premise of both is forcing people’s attention to focus on an unsolicited message as a way of manipulating them into doing something they would not otherwise do or buy something they would not otherwise buy. Spreading those manipulative messages through phone calls or paper mail does not seem to be fundamentally different than spreading them through interstitial television clips, magazine pages, billboards, spam emails, or website popups. All of these delivery mechanisms are ugly, unpleasant, and typically exploitative. Personally I find e.g. Facebook and Google’s panopticon-driven advertising empires to be more ethically problematic than many kinds of telemarketing and junk mail. Facebook in particular has caused more concrete harm in the world than any telemarketing firm.

justapassenger 6y ago
Why is me telling you about a product I’ve created, or service I offer exploitative? Are 100% of products you use in your life, products and services that you’d know about their existence and value they can provide to you without any form of advertising? If my aunt opens a hair salon and buys ads to get potential customers to come and try her service making world a worse place? What if I build new app, that helps to solve child sleeping problems for new parents - i should just hope they stumble upon it by accident, and God forbids try to advertise to new parents? I’m not arguing there isn’t lots of crap in advertising market, or that big tech ads don’t have problems. But ads are much more complex, and it serves much more use cases than typical “let’s kill all ads with fire” person on HN is aware of. For big chunk of them their only expertise in ads ecosystem is installing Adblock.
- jacobolus 6y ago
  You dodged the question. What do you think the fundamental difference is between your aunt leaving doorknob flyers, cold-calling neighbors at dinnertime, sending spam emails, buying TV ad slots in the local news program, putting up a billboard on the highway, or buying targeted facebook ads? Do you think there is a fundamental difference between your aunt’s salon and someone selling candy to kids, encouraging people to ask their doctor about a named pharmaceutical, describing a casino’s slot machines, soliciting donations to a megachurch, talking up penny stocks, presenting jingoistic propaganda, making unfounded accusations about a political rival, or describing a phone sex hotline? Where do you draw the line between advertising that you consider beneficial (or ethical) vs. not?
  - justapassenger 6y ago
    Of course there’s fundamental difference between all those things you’re describing, and you’re arguing in dishonest way if you pretend not to see it. I’m not arguing there aren’t bad uses of advertising, or bad channels to do it. I’m arguing this is very complex space that you cannot just simplify to few anecdotes and claim that based on it proves it’s detrimental to society and should be destroyed. There’s no point in continuing this conversation, bye.
    - jacobolus 6y ago
      Your answer to the question was another dodge + more gratuitous insults. So I guess we can all agree we are done here.

cwkoss 6y ago

Telemarketing and spam are advertising. It's all the same game as digital advertising, just different mediums. Your hostility to the idea that advertising is a net societal ill reminds me of the quote, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

justapassenger 6y ago
I’m not arguing they aren’t form of advertising. Same as ransomware is a form of encryption. Should we ban encryption, because it’s being used for bad things as well? I’m also not hostile to an idea that advertising maybe net negative. I’d love to see a study that shows that. But I’m very septic about someone bringing that idea as a given truth, while they lack even most basic knowledge about advertising.