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Kubernetes is engineered to solve the five hundred different problems that different people have in a way that works for them. If you don't do that then everyon

Kubernetes is engineered to solve the five hundred different problems that different people have in a way that works for them. If you don't do that then everyone will complain about their feature or some edge case being missing and not use the system (see comments on mesos in this thread). That's not over engineering, that's the required amount of engineering for this sort of system.

ForHackernews 6y ago
Yeah, k8s people keep telling me this. But also, k8s "secrets" are not, in fact, secret, you can't actually accept traffic from the web without some extra magic cloud load balancer (cf https://v0-3-0--metallb.netlify.app/ https://v0-3-0--metallb.netlify.app/ maybe eventually) or properly run anything stateful like a database (maybe soon). Forget covering "everyone's" use cases: From where I'm sitting, k8s is an insanely complicated system that does a miserable job of covering the 95% use cases that Heroku solved in 2008. It's great that k8s (maybe) solves hard problems that nobody except Google has, but it doesn't solve the easy problems that most people have.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  Your points mostly only matter if you're running on bare metal. If you're in the cloud then you've got load balancers and databases covered by your cloud provider. I need Kubernetes to handle problems that I already have great solutions for. I want it to handle the problems that my cloud provider provides poor or very specialized (ie: lock in) solutions for. Which for me it does very well and a lot more easily than doing so without Kubernetes. edit: Kubernetes secrets are also either good enough (ie: on par with Heroku) or your cloud provider has an actual proper KMS.
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    ITT: K8s is great because it frees us from the tyranny of Big Cloud providers. Also ITT: Oh, but of course k8s is totally unusable unless you buy it from a Big Cloud provider.
    - marcinzm 6y ago
      Please don't put words in my mouth. I said it frees you from lock in by a single cloud provider which it does.
    - andrecp11 6y ago
      The K8s docs offer ways of running on-prems, you can do it with nginx ingress daemonset + DNS pointing to the IP (or CNAME) of your workers. It's all covered quite well here: https://kubernetes.github.io/ingress-nginx/deploy/baremetal/ https://kubernetes.github.io/ingress-nginx/deploy/baremetal/ and we use it in production.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- orf 6y ago
  > It's great that k8s (maybe) solves hard problems that nobody except Google has, but it doesn't solve the easy problems that most people have. But it does though. Your dissent is that you don’t understand what secrets are and think load balancers are “magic”? Come on. Also see this[1] 1. https://www.nginx.com/products/nginx-ingress-controller/ https://www.nginx.com/products/nginx-ingress-controller/
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    Yes, yes, there's a million zillion Kubernetes ingress things, none of which are really good enough that anyone uses them without a cloud-provider LB in front of it. Also they only deal with HTTP/S traffic. Got other types of traffic you want to run? Too bad, tunnel it over HTTPS. If you want a picture of the future of computing, imagine everything-over-HTTPS-on-k8s-on-AWS stomping on a human face forever.
    - orf 6y ago
      > Got other types of traffic you want to run? Too bad, tunnel it over HTTPS. Then you’d expose a service, not an ingress. You can do this in a variety of ways depending on your environment. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say you’ve never really used k8s and haven’t really grokked even the documentation. It’s complicated, some parts more than others, but if you’re still at the “wow guys secrets are not really secret!1!” level I’m not sure how much you can really bring to the table in a discussion about k8s.
      - ForHackernews 6y ago
        > Then you’d expose a service, not an ingress. That only works to access the service from other pods inside k8s, it doesn't help you make that service accessible to the outside world. Tell me how you'd run Dovecot on k8s? > if you’re still at the “wow guys secrets are not really secret!1!” level I'm just pointing out one (of many) extremely obvious warts on k8s. You act like this is some misconception on my part, but it's not that silly to assume that a secret would be. But to answer your smarm, yes, I've used Kubernetes in anger: my last company was all-in on k8s because it's so trendy, and it was (IMHO) an absolute nightmare. All kinds of Stockholm-syndrome engineers claiming that writing thousands of lines of YAML is a great experience, unable to use current features because even mighty Amazon can't safely upgrade a k8s cluster....

ForHackernews 6y ago

Yeah, k8s people keep telling me this. But also, k8s "secrets" are not, in fact, secret, you can't actually accept traffic from the web without some extra magic cloud load balancer (cf https://v0-3-0--metallb.netlify.app/ https://v0-3-0--metallb.netlify.app/ maybe eventually) or properly run anything stateful like a database (maybe soon). Forget covering "everyone's" use cases: From where I'm sitting, k8s is an insanely complicated system that does a miserable job of covering the 95% use cases that Heroku solved in 2008. It's great that k8s (maybe) solves hard problems that nobody except Google has, but it doesn't solve the easy problems that most people have.

marcinzm 6y ago
Your points mostly only matter if you're running on bare metal. If you're in the cloud then you've got load balancers and databases covered by your cloud provider. I need Kubernetes to handle problems that I already have great solutions for. I want it to handle the problems that my cloud provider provides poor or very specialized (ie: lock in) solutions for. Which for me it does very well and a lot more easily than doing so without Kubernetes. edit: Kubernetes secrets are also either good enough (ie: on par with Heroku) or your cloud provider has an actual proper KMS.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  ITT: K8s is great because it frees us from the tyranny of Big Cloud providers. Also ITT: Oh, but of course k8s is totally unusable unless you buy it from a Big Cloud provider.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I said it frees you from lock in by a single cloud provider which it does.
  - andrecp11 6y ago
    The K8s docs offer ways of running on-prems, you can do it with nginx ingress daemonset + DNS pointing to the IP (or CNAME) of your workers. It's all covered quite well here: https://kubernetes.github.io/ingress-nginx/deploy/baremetal/ https://kubernetes.github.io/ingress-nginx/deploy/baremetal/ and we use it in production.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
orf 6y ago
> It's great that k8s (maybe) solves hard problems that nobody except Google has, but it doesn't solve the easy problems that most people have. But it does though. Your dissent is that you don’t understand what secrets are and think load balancers are “magic”? Come on. Also see this[1] 1. https://www.nginx.com/products/nginx-ingress-controller/ https://www.nginx.com/products/nginx-ingress-controller/
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  Yes, yes, there's a million zillion Kubernetes ingress things, none of which are really good enough that anyone uses them without a cloud-provider LB in front of it. Also they only deal with HTTP/S traffic. Got other types of traffic you want to run? Too bad, tunnel it over HTTPS. If you want a picture of the future of computing, imagine everything-over-HTTPS-on-k8s-on-AWS stomping on a human face forever.
  - orf 6y ago
    > Got other types of traffic you want to run? Too bad, tunnel it over HTTPS. Then you’d expose a service, not an ingress. You can do this in a variety of ways depending on your environment. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say you’ve never really used k8s and haven’t really grokked even the documentation. It’s complicated, some parts more than others, but if you’re still at the “wow guys secrets are not really secret!1!” level I’m not sure how much you can really bring to the table in a discussion about k8s.
    - ForHackernews 6y ago
      > Then you’d expose a service, not an ingress. That only works to access the service from other pods inside k8s, it doesn't help you make that service accessible to the outside world. Tell me how you'd run Dovecot on k8s? > if you’re still at the “wow guys secrets are not really secret!1!” level I'm just pointing out one (of many) extremely obvious warts on k8s. You act like this is some misconception on my part, but it's not that silly to assume that a secret would be. But to answer your smarm, yes, I've used Kubernetes in anger: my last company was all-in on k8s because it's so trendy, and it was (IMHO) an absolute nightmare. All kinds of Stockholm-syndrome engineers claiming that writing thousands of lines of YAML is a great experience, unable to use current features because even mighty Amazon can't safely upgrade a k8s cluster....