5 ms·

The technology is cool, but I don't really know if I want KYC regulatory risk in my encrypted messaging client. I just want italics.

by airza 6y ago

josh2600 6y ago
I don't think Signal has any plans to scan your driver's license. What they've built is a non-custodial wallet (IE, they can't help you if you lose your keys, and they have no ability to authorize or deny a payment on your behalf).
- airza 6y ago
  In my opinion a lot of the spicy regulatory issues around coins with private transactions are still not fully realized because none of them have mainstream adoption. The problem here is that Signal's goal to succeed as a mainstream encrypted messaging client could have the unpleasant side effect of bringing this technology under regulatory scrutiny. Hopefully things won't come to that, of course...
  - senectus1 6y ago
    This is probably why they done sell (MobileCoin) to anyone in or from the US...
    - AJ007 6y ago
      And they need to exhaustively verify who is really buying these to be sure they really aren’t in the US so they don’t end up in a Bitmex style situation. The larger problem here for Signal is US legal claims could nuke it off the (very) centralized Apple App Stores and Google Play Store. Then what?
- qqii 6y ago
  > To try to tame that volatility problem, Marlinspike and Goldbard say they imagine adding a feature in the future that will automatically exchange users' payments in dollars or another more stable currency for MobileCoin only when they make a payment, and then exchange it back on the recipient's side—though it's not yet clear if those trades could be made without leaving a trail that might identify the user. This would have to involve KYC or harsh limits.
lrvick 6y ago
Then why use Signal at all? You had to have KYC to get a phone number in most countries which you had to give to Signal which could expose your location etc via tower pings to anyone you communicate with unless you port it to a VoIP number (how many know how to do that?) You also had to provide a phone number to get a Google or Apple account to install Signal because anonymous signed install methods are not supported, which moxie says is intentional to collect analytics. Signal may have end to end encryption but being anonymous is a clear non goal.
- fuzxi 6y ago
  >You also had to provide a phone number to get a Google or Apple account to install Signal because anonymous signed install methods are not supported, which moxie says is intentional to collect analytics. Signal distributes a standalone APK for android, which does function without google play services. https://signal.org/android/apk/ https://signal.org/android/apk/
  - SwimSwimHungry 6y ago
    Yes it functions, like on my de-Googled Pixel 3a running GrapheneOS. But it's not particularly reliable in my experience, especially if you don't have the gapps services.
  - lrvick 6y ago
    Functions != secure. You must turn on Untrusted Sources which disables meaningful signature verification. Now you must hope you don't get MITMed every time you update. It is a joke they seriously expect people to sideload. They need to provide a deterministic and easily auditable F-Deoid repo or let the F-Droid team compile/sign it for them. Neither will happen though because moxie has been very open about the fact he wants the analytics that comes with google/apple tracked installs, user privacy be damned.
    - KAMSPioneer 6y ago
      Not entirely true. On recent versions of Android, you are asked to give "install untrusted apps" permission on a per-source basis (e.g. I downloaded an apk from Chrome, now I have to allow Chrome to be a source of installable apks). Also, it doesn't disable signature verification at all -- it just changes to what is essentially a TOFU model. You can verify this by installing, say, NewPipe from vanilla Fdroid, then adding the NewPipe repo and installing a build from there. It will fail unless you completely remove the original app (from all the profiles on the device!) and install the new one afterwards. This is due to different signatures between repos. In any case, I agree with your wider point about Signal's rather concerning distribution strategy. I would like to see inclusion in Fdroid, or at least a custom third-party repository. Unlikely though.
troquerre 6y ago
You don't need to KYC as it's just a mobile wallet — same with all the other crypto wallets out there. I'd be surprised if Signal integrated features in the future that require KYC.
- 3np 6y ago
  You already need KYC in form of a phone number that can receive SMS. In many countries, that is not possible without government ID and being a resident. In my country it’s actually easier to legally open a verified trading account on a local cryptocurrency exchange than it is to get a voice/SMS SIM if you’re not a registered local resident.
frosted-flakes 6y ago
KYC = Know Your Customer/Client.

The technology is cool, but I don't really know if I want KYC regulatory risk in my encrypted messaging client. I just want italics.

by airza 6y ago

The technology is cool, but I don't really know if I want KYC regulatory risk in my encrypted messaging client. I just want italics.

josh2600 6y ago

I don't think Signal has any plans to scan your driver's license. What they've built is a non-custodial wallet (IE, they can't help you if you lose your keys, and they have no ability to authorize or deny a payment on your behalf).

airza 6y ago
In my opinion a lot of the spicy regulatory issues around coins with private transactions are still not fully realized because none of them have mainstream adoption. The problem here is that Signal's goal to succeed as a mainstream encrypted messaging client could have the unpleasant side effect of bringing this technology under regulatory scrutiny. Hopefully things won't come to that, of course...
- senectus1 6y ago
  This is probably why they done sell (MobileCoin) to anyone in or from the US...
  - AJ007 6y ago
    And they need to exhaustively verify who is really buying these to be sure they really aren’t in the US so they don’t end up in a Bitmex style situation. The larger problem here for Signal is US legal claims could nuke it off the (very) centralized Apple App Stores and Google Play Store. Then what?
qqii 6y ago
> To try to tame that volatility problem, Marlinspike and Goldbard say they imagine adding a feature in the future that will automatically exchange users' payments in dollars or another more stable currency for MobileCoin only when they make a payment, and then exchange it back on the recipient's side—though it's not yet clear if those trades could be made without leaving a trail that might identify the user. This would have to involve KYC or harsh limits.

lrvick 6y ago

Then why use Signal at all? You had to have KYC to get a phone number in most countries which you had to give to Signal which could expose your location etc via tower pings to anyone you communicate with unless you port it to a VoIP number (how many know how to do that?) You also had to provide a phone number to get a Google or Apple account to install Signal because anonymous signed install methods are not supported, which moxie says is intentional to collect analytics. Signal may have end to end encryption but being anonymous is a clear non goal.

fuzxi 6y ago
>You also had to provide a phone number to get a Google or Apple account to install Signal because anonymous signed install methods are not supported, which moxie says is intentional to collect analytics. Signal distributes a standalone APK for android, which does function without google play services. https://signal.org/android/apk/ https://signal.org/android/apk/
- SwimSwimHungry 6y ago
  Yes it functions, like on my de-Googled Pixel 3a running GrapheneOS. But it's not particularly reliable in my experience, especially if you don't have the gapps services.
- lrvick 6y ago
  Functions != secure. You must turn on Untrusted Sources which disables meaningful signature verification. Now you must hope you don't get MITMed every time you update. It is a joke they seriously expect people to sideload. They need to provide a deterministic and easily auditable F-Deoid repo or let the F-Droid team compile/sign it for them. Neither will happen though because moxie has been very open about the fact he wants the analytics that comes with google/apple tracked installs, user privacy be damned.
  - KAMSPioneer 6y ago
    Not entirely true. On recent versions of Android, you are asked to give "install untrusted apps" permission on a per-source basis (e.g. I downloaded an apk from Chrome, now I have to allow Chrome to be a source of installable apks). Also, it doesn't disable signature verification at all -- it just changes to what is essentially a TOFU model. You can verify this by installing, say, NewPipe from vanilla Fdroid, then adding the NewPipe repo and installing a build from there. It will fail unless you completely remove the original app (from all the profiles on the device!) and install the new one afterwards. This is due to different signatures between repos. In any case, I agree with your wider point about Signal's rather concerning distribution strategy. I would like to see inclusion in Fdroid, or at least a custom third-party repository. Unlikely though.

troquerre 6y ago

You don't need to KYC as it's just a mobile wallet — same with all the other crypto wallets out there. I'd be surprised if Signal integrated features in the future that require KYC.

3np 6y ago
You already need KYC in form of a phone number that can receive SMS. In many countries, that is not possible without government ID and being a resident. In my country it’s actually easier to legally open a verified trading account on a local cryptocurrency exchange than it is to get a voice/SMS SIM if you’re not a registered local resident.

frosted-flakes 6y ago

KYC = Know Your Customer/Client.