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For a different perspective, learning Kubernetes and using it widely gives you a universal set of tools for managing all sorts of applications at all scales. ht

For a different perspective, learning Kubernetes and using it widely gives you a universal set of tools for managing all sorts of applications at all scales. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26502900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26502900

ForHackernews 6y ago
Sure, this is kind of true, but only in the most depressing way possible. Kubernetes is overengineered and terrible but it's also just about the only game in town if you want a vendor-agnostic container orchestration system. This is the same situation as Javascript circa 2008: "Learning this absolute dogshit language and using it widely will give you the ability to write universal applications that will run in browsers everywhere and make you very employable." You're not wrong about k8s today, and wouldn't have been wrong about JS in the past, but boy is it a sad indictment of our industry that these things are true.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  Kubernetes is engineered to solve the five hundred different problems that different people have in a way that works for them. If you don't do that then everyone will complain about their feature or some edge case being missing and not use the system (see comments on mesos in this thread). That's not over engineering, that's the required amount of engineering for this sort of system.
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    Yeah, k8s people keep telling me this. But also, k8s "secrets" are not, in fact, secret, you can't actually accept traffic from the web without some extra magic cloud load balancer (cf https://v0-3-0--metallb.netlify.app/ https://v0-3-0--metallb.netlify.app/ maybe eventually) or properly run anything stateful like a database (maybe soon). Forget covering "everyone's" use cases: From where I'm sitting, k8s is an insanely complicated system that does a miserable job of covering the 95% use cases that Heroku solved in 2008. It's great that k8s (maybe) solves hard problems that nobody except Google has, but it doesn't solve the easy problems that most people have.
    - marcinzm 6y ago
      Your points mostly only matter if you're running on bare metal. If you're in the cloud then you've got load balancers and databases covered by your cloud provider. I need Kubernetes to handle problems that I already have great solutions for. I want it to handle the problems that my cloud provider provides poor or very specialized (ie: lock in) solutions for. Which for me it does very well and a lot more easily than doing so without Kubernetes. edit: Kubernetes secrets are also either good enough (ie: on par with Heroku) or your cloud provider has an actual proper KMS.
      - ForHackernews 6y ago
        ITT: K8s is great because it frees us from the tyranny of Big Cloud providers. Also ITT: Oh, but of course k8s is totally unusable unless you buy it from a Big Cloud provider.
        marcinzm 6y ago
        Please don't put words in my mouth. I said it frees you from lock in by a single cloud provider which it does.
        andrecp11 6y ago
        The K8s docs offer ways of running on-prems, you can do it with nginx ingress daemonset + DNS pointing to the IP (or CNAME) of your workers. It's all covered quite well here: https://kubernetes.github.io/ingress-nginx/deploy/baremetal/ https://kubernetes.github.io/ingress-nginx/deploy/baremetal/ and we use it in production.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - orf 6y ago
      > It's great that k8s (maybe) solves hard problems that nobody except Google has, but it doesn't solve the easy problems that most people have. But it does though. Your dissent is that you don’t understand what secrets are and think load balancers are “magic”? Come on. Also see this[1] 1. https://www.nginx.com/products/nginx-ingress-controller/ https://www.nginx.com/products/nginx-ingress-controller/

ForHackernews 6y ago

Sure, this is kind of true, but only in the most depressing way possible. Kubernetes is overengineered and terrible but it's also just about the only game in town if you want a vendor-agnostic container orchestration system. This is the same situation as Javascript circa 2008: "Learning this absolute dogshit language and using it widely will give you the ability to write universal applications that will run in browsers everywhere and make you very employable." You're not wrong about k8s today, and wouldn't have been wrong about JS in the past, but boy is it a sad indictment of our industry that these things are true.

marcinzm 6y ago
Kubernetes is engineered to solve the five hundred different problems that different people have in a way that works for them. If you don't do that then everyone will complain about their feature or some edge case being missing and not use the system (see comments on mesos in this thread). That's not over engineering, that's the required amount of engineering for this sort of system.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  Yeah, k8s people keep telling me this. But also, k8s "secrets" are not, in fact, secret, you can't actually accept traffic from the web without some extra magic cloud load balancer (cf https://v0-3-0--metallb.netlify.app/ https://v0-3-0--metallb.netlify.app/ maybe eventually) or properly run anything stateful like a database (maybe soon). Forget covering "everyone's" use cases: From where I'm sitting, k8s is an insanely complicated system that does a miserable job of covering the 95% use cases that Heroku solved in 2008. It's great that k8s (maybe) solves hard problems that nobody except Google has, but it doesn't solve the easy problems that most people have.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    Your points mostly only matter if you're running on bare metal. If you're in the cloud then you've got load balancers and databases covered by your cloud provider. I need Kubernetes to handle problems that I already have great solutions for. I want it to handle the problems that my cloud provider provides poor or very specialized (ie: lock in) solutions for. Which for me it does very well and a lot more easily than doing so without Kubernetes. edit: Kubernetes secrets are also either good enough (ie: on par with Heroku) or your cloud provider has an actual proper KMS.
    - ForHackernews 6y ago
      ITT: K8s is great because it frees us from the tyranny of Big Cloud providers. Also ITT: Oh, but of course k8s is totally unusable unless you buy it from a Big Cloud provider.
      - marcinzm 6y ago
        Please don't put words in my mouth. I said it frees you from lock in by a single cloud provider which it does.
      - andrecp11 6y ago
        The K8s docs offer ways of running on-prems, you can do it with nginx ingress daemonset + DNS pointing to the IP (or CNAME) of your workers. It's all covered quite well here: https://kubernetes.github.io/ingress-nginx/deploy/baremetal/ https://kubernetes.github.io/ingress-nginx/deploy/baremetal/ and we use it in production.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - orf 6y ago
    > It's great that k8s (maybe) solves hard problems that nobody except Google has, but it doesn't solve the easy problems that most people have. But it does though. Your dissent is that you don’t understand what secrets are and think load balancers are “magic”? Come on. Also see this[1] 1. https://www.nginx.com/products/nginx-ingress-controller/ https://www.nginx.com/products/nginx-ingress-controller/