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> These people legit code 8-10 hours a day straight. That's physically impossible, unless you're performing some assembly line task like creating a frontend pr

> These people legit code 8-10 hours a day straight. That's physically impossible, unless you're performing some assembly line task like creating a frontend prototype from a marvelapp mock (tons of html, css, js). Can you do creative work for 10 hours in a stretch, every day.

adam_arthur 6y ago
I did this myself for many years in a startup :) Averaging around 350k lines of code a year for a few years. This was mostly frontend/product focused work, so there is more boilerplate than in other disciplines, of course. It's also important to note, the higher quality the codebase is, the less energy it takes to add to it. If you spend 50% of your time reverse engineering spaghetti code, it will be way more tiring than adding to a codebase where design is sound, code is very human readable/friendly etc. It certainly takes a lot of energy, but why do you say it's impossible?
- fctorial 6y ago
  I can feel my IQ dropping at a steady rate when I program for long stretches of time.
  - adam_arthur 6y ago
    In my case I was working in a codebase that I largely built myself, so I understood all design decisions and code at all times. It's much easier to operate in this environment. I have worked on less clean codebases where I spend hours tracing state through spaghetti-like code, and there's no way you can productively code for lengths of time in those environments. It's always better to refactor that kind of stuff ASAP, assuming the longevity of the product matters, and the refactor is a tangible improvement over the original.
    - dmitriy_ko 6y ago
      So it was more or less a large solo project? How do you know your code base was much better than those less clean/spaghetti codebases? Your own code is obviously easier to read/understand than that of others. In general it's easier to write code than to read/understand code of others. Developers who are founding members of a codebase are able to navigate it better vs those who come later and therefore able to work much faster. It may give them a false impression that they are genius 10x coder. Then when developer who comes later is not able to be productive, founding developer would blame it on incompetence of newer developer. But it could also be that codebase is of poor quality, but as founding developer you don't see it. It's hard to be objective about your own code. Now let's go to the reverse situation when you are spending hours "tracing state through spaghetti-like code". It could in fact be that it's actually a great code written by a 10x developer, but you are not smart enough to understand how it works. It's natural to blame someone else and not you.
      - adam_arthur 6y ago
        Not a solo project. I was an early dev at a startup and owned that feature area. Later on others took over the code. How to judge whether a codebase is high quality? Consistency of design and abstraction. Does the code use the same abstractions and design throughout? Consistency is one of the most important things in quality. How many unique concepts and abstractions do you have to learn to understand the code? E.g. in frontend context, do you use the same pattern for managing business oriented state? How is that state updated? Are those patterns consistent throughout your codebase? The biggest problem I see with the spaghetti codebases is they lack consistency in design. Separation of concerns. What's the blast radius of any given change? If I change render logic, can it impact business logic, and vice versa? A big problem I see is that codebases do not appropriately separate these type of things out. Meaning the code is fragile and it's easy to introduce bugs inadvertently. Anyway, I can list many points, but I'm on mobile now. High level indicators would be: How quickly can new devs jump into the codebase? Is it easy to diagram and explain to others how the code is structured? How many bugs come out of your codebase? How quickly can you add new features to that codebase? What is the "blast radius", or is it possible to break something seemingly unrelated to a change you're making? How do I know my codebase was good quality? I was extremely self critical when writing it and ended up rewriting it a few times before it was in a state I was satisfied with. Number of bugs are extremely low and feature velocity is high, relative to other areas of the code.
  - DesiLurker 6y ago
    Been coding about 20yrs, In my case its not as much as the IQ but the ability to switch perspectives. I have seen that when I code or debug for long hours often I lose that critical ability and I often repeat the same mistakes. Eventually I take hours to accomplish what I would in 30mins, thats when its time to wrap up. but I should point out that long stretches of time are different from quite (context switch free) streches of time.
  - uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 6y ago
    I get this but it usually just means I need to eat some food
vsareto 6y ago
It's definitely possible with drugs :)
- fctorial 6y ago
  Which ones
  - VoiceOfWisdom 6y ago
    Modaphanil and ephedrine are my drugs of choice for this.
jbluepolarbear 6y ago
I would consider myself a highly productive person and I have many of the qualities they pointed out. I can’t program that long, I program in hyper-focused bursts. I have had many coworkers comment/complain that it looks like I’m not working because I’m surfing the web, watching YouTube, daydreaming, etc. But I’m constantly designing, debating, and thinking out how I should implement something that by the time I actually go to code it I know what needs to be done and bust it out in a couple hours. My managers commented on this early in my career because other developers think I’m lazy, unprofessional, or unproductive when I’m usually the most productive person on the team. Working from home removes this problem for me.
- zimpenfish 6y ago
  https://b.tdhopper.com/blog/thinking-at-work/ https://b.tdhopper.com/blog/thinking-at-work/ > One afternoon, I was bent over a program listing while Wendl was staring into space, his feet propped up on his desk. Our boss came in and asked, “Wendl! What are you doing?” Wendl said, “I’m thinking.” And the boss said, “Can’t you do that at home?”
golergka 6y ago
That's physically impossible only for 98% of the population, like you and me.
PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
"you can work long, you can work hard, you can work smart, but you can ONLY pick 2 out of 3" - 90's programmers.
fsociety 6y ago
Not impossible. I learned from an engineer to go lay down in bed for 30 minutes and stare at the ceiling. It mostly resets the brain.

adam_arthur 6y ago

I did this myself for many years in a startup :) Averaging around 350k lines of code a year for a few years. This was mostly frontend/product focused work, so there is more boilerplate than in other disciplines, of course. It's also important to note, the higher quality the codebase is, the less energy it takes to add to it. If you spend 50% of your time reverse engineering spaghetti code, it will be way more tiring than adding to a codebase where design is sound, code is very human readable/friendly etc. It certainly takes a lot of energy, but why do you say it's impossible?

fctorial 6y ago
I can feel my IQ dropping at a steady rate when I program for long stretches of time.
- adam_arthur 6y ago
  In my case I was working in a codebase that I largely built myself, so I understood all design decisions and code at all times. It's much easier to operate in this environment. I have worked on less clean codebases where I spend hours tracing state through spaghetti-like code, and there's no way you can productively code for lengths of time in those environments. It's always better to refactor that kind of stuff ASAP, assuming the longevity of the product matters, and the refactor is a tangible improvement over the original.
  - dmitriy_ko 6y ago
    So it was more or less a large solo project? How do you know your code base was much better than those less clean/spaghetti codebases? Your own code is obviously easier to read/understand than that of others. In general it's easier to write code than to read/understand code of others. Developers who are founding members of a codebase are able to navigate it better vs those who come later and therefore able to work much faster. It may give them a false impression that they are genius 10x coder. Then when developer who comes later is not able to be productive, founding developer would blame it on incompetence of newer developer. But it could also be that codebase is of poor quality, but as founding developer you don't see it. It's hard to be objective about your own code. Now let's go to the reverse situation when you are spending hours "tracing state through spaghetti-like code". It could in fact be that it's actually a great code written by a 10x developer, but you are not smart enough to understand how it works. It's natural to blame someone else and not you.
    - adam_arthur 6y ago
      Not a solo project. I was an early dev at a startup and owned that feature area. Later on others took over the code. How to judge whether a codebase is high quality? Consistency of design and abstraction. Does the code use the same abstractions and design throughout? Consistency is one of the most important things in quality. How many unique concepts and abstractions do you have to learn to understand the code? E.g. in frontend context, do you use the same pattern for managing business oriented state? How is that state updated? Are those patterns consistent throughout your codebase? The biggest problem I see with the spaghetti codebases is they lack consistency in design. Separation of concerns. What's the blast radius of any given change? If I change render logic, can it impact business logic, and vice versa? A big problem I see is that codebases do not appropriately separate these type of things out. Meaning the code is fragile and it's easy to introduce bugs inadvertently. Anyway, I can list many points, but I'm on mobile now. High level indicators would be: How quickly can new devs jump into the codebase? Is it easy to diagram and explain to others how the code is structured? How many bugs come out of your codebase? How quickly can you add new features to that codebase? What is the "blast radius", or is it possible to break something seemingly unrelated to a change you're making? How do I know my codebase was good quality? I was extremely self critical when writing it and ended up rewriting it a few times before it was in a state I was satisfied with. Number of bugs are extremely low and feature velocity is high, relative to other areas of the code.
- DesiLurker 6y ago
  Been coding about 20yrs, In my case its not as much as the IQ but the ability to switch perspectives. I have seen that when I code or debug for long hours often I lose that critical ability and I often repeat the same mistakes. Eventually I take hours to accomplish what I would in 30mins, thats when its time to wrap up. but I should point out that long stretches of time are different from quite (context switch free) streches of time.
- uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 6y ago
  I get this but it usually just means I need to eat some food

vsareto 6y ago

It's definitely possible with drugs :)

fctorial 6y ago
Which ones
- VoiceOfWisdom 6y ago
  Modaphanil and ephedrine are my drugs of choice for this.

jbluepolarbear 6y ago

I would consider myself a highly productive person and I have many of the qualities they pointed out. I can’t program that long, I program in hyper-focused bursts. I have had many coworkers comment/complain that it looks like I’m not working because I’m surfing the web, watching YouTube, daydreaming, etc. But I’m constantly designing, debating, and thinking out how I should implement something that by the time I actually go to code it I know what needs to be done and bust it out in a couple hours. My managers commented on this early in my career because other developers think I’m lazy, unprofessional, or unproductive when I’m usually the most productive person on the team. Working from home removes this problem for me.

zimpenfish 6y ago
https://b.tdhopper.com/blog/thinking-at-work/ https://b.tdhopper.com/blog/thinking-at-work/ > One afternoon, I was bent over a program listing while Wendl was staring into space, his feet propped up on his desk. Our boss came in and asked, “Wendl! What are you doing?” Wendl said, “I’m thinking.” And the boss said, “Can’t you do that at home?”

golergka 6y ago

That's physically impossible only for 98% of the population, like you and me.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago

"you can work long, you can work hard, you can work smart, but you can ONLY pick 2 out of 3" - 90's programmers.

fsociety 6y ago

Not impossible. I learned from an engineer to go lay down in bed for 30 minutes and stare at the ceiling. It mostly resets the brain.