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I don’t see an issue with saying both that $200k is not that much and that the median salary in the US is ABSOLUTELY TOO LOW. Both can be true and not tone deaf

I don’t see an issue with saying both that $200k is not that much and that the median salary in the US is ABSOLUTELY TOO LOW. Both can be true and not tone deaf. Do you disagree? Or put another way: why did you find the comment tone deaf?

bumby 6y ago
It can potentially be true but probably only to a certain extent. I find it tone deaf because the vast majority of people are getting by on much, much less. Which means almost by definition, it IS quite a bit. So to say it isn’t much comes across as oblivious to the way most people live, and potentially not aware of the problems that the average person faces. Would you complain to a person in a wheelchair about how bad it sucks to have to take the stairs to work even though it may still be true? Giving the OP the benefit of the doubt, it may be COL dependent. But even in SV, $200k is nearly double the median household income and nearly 4x the median personal income. It reminds me of an article I read during the financial crises of 2007-2009 written by someone who was making the case that being a one-percenter doesn’t mean you have lots of money. She then later described her new Lexus payment, costs of private school, oversized mortgage etc. Both can be true iff that is considered a reasonable lifestyle for the average person. To be generous to the OP, the average way an American lives is probably not the best measuring stick (e.g., something like 60+% can’t meet an unexpected $500 bill. However, just like the OPs statement, I tend to think this is related more to lifestyle choices)
- beardedetim 6y ago
  That makes total sense. I disagree with your takeaway but it seems like a valid one to have. From my experience coming from homelessness type of poverty to making 6 figures, I have access to many things and don’t have to worry about food anymore. But. I still don’t have enough savings to live off of if I lose my job, am still one serious accident away from bankruptcy, etc. the way I’ve explained it is that I now have something to lose, not that I’ve gained all that much outside of benefits (I now have two front teeth!) Maybe the point I’m trying to make with my anecdote is that making $$$ isn’t the same as having $$$, high CoL or not.
  - bumby 6y ago
    >the point I’m trying to make with my anecdote is that making $$$ isn’t the same as having $$$ This is very true but I feel like it misses the point. Making $$$ gives you resources to have many things that are outside the grasp of the majority. (Whether you squander that opportunity or not is up to you) There’s nothing wrong with that, but feeling like you are disadvantaged when you have access to more than most comes across as out of touch. I think there’s probably some hedonic treadmill effects here. Thinking at one point in your life “if I can make $200k a year, I’ll be rich” and “feeling rich” once you get there may not align as often as we’d hope. But you likely live a rather “rich” lifestyle compared to those making $40k/yr. I also think there’s often comparative effects that reduce how it feels. $200k feels low once you realize your neighbor who owns a landscaping company pulls $400k.
- okprod 6y ago
  I find it tone deaf because the vast majority of people are getting by on much, much less. I said $200K isn't that much because I was responding to the article saying $200K is in the 1%-5% and those making that much use offshore tax shelters and other practices. $200K immediately becomes what, $140K or less after taxes? My original comment still stands; I don't think someone making $140K is in the top percentages of wealth and hiding their money in offshore schemes. So to say it isn’t much comes across as oblivious to the way most people live, and potentially not aware of the problems that the average person faces. I spent a decade working in the nonprofit sector with low-income, homeless, addicts, etc., with my first job at $24K and my last job in the sector at $55K. I think I'm somewhat aware of what the average person faces. You and others on my post have covered things adequately, but I would just add that sometimes things aren't about lifestyle choices/sometimes there are no "good" choices -- If you have to pay $3K for rent in an average apartment because it's close to your new job that pays more, really the only other option besides not taking the job is to move farther out, but then you pay more in transportation, insurance, parking, etc.
  - bumby 6y ago
    >I don't think someone making $140K is in the top percentages of wealth and hiding their money in offshore schemes. I agree, this income doesn't feel indicative of those type of tax avoidance plays. But I think making $200k is still objectively "a lot", if for no other reason than it is statistically proving one to be in the top 5%. I don't know a better way to define it because the subjective scale will always hold true; someone in the top 1% will feel inadequate to someone in top 0.1% who will feel inadequate compared to a Saudi prince. I guess what I'm trying to get across is that both can be true: 1) a salary of $X amount can objectively be high and 2) somebody earning $X can subjectively not feel like it's enough. The dissonance between the two is created because of the way we're wired to gauge our position relative to those around us.

bumby 6y ago

It can potentially be true but probably only to a certain extent. I find it tone deaf because the vast majority of people are getting by on much, much less. Which means almost by definition, it IS quite a bit. So to say it isn’t much comes across as oblivious to the way most people live, and potentially not aware of the problems that the average person faces. Would you complain to a person in a wheelchair about how bad it sucks to have to take the stairs to work even though it may still be true? Giving the OP the benefit of the doubt, it may be COL dependent. But even in SV, $200k is nearly double the median household income and nearly 4x the median personal income. It reminds me of an article I read during the financial crises of 2007-2009 written by someone who was making the case that being a one-percenter doesn’t mean you have lots of money. She then later described her new Lexus payment, costs of private school, oversized mortgage etc. Both can be true iff that is considered a reasonable lifestyle for the average person. To be generous to the OP, the average way an American lives is probably not the best measuring stick (e.g., something like 60+% can’t meet an unexpected $500 bill. However, just like the OPs statement, I tend to think this is related more to lifestyle choices)

beardedetim 6y ago
That makes total sense. I disagree with your takeaway but it seems like a valid one to have. From my experience coming from homelessness type of poverty to making 6 figures, I have access to many things and don’t have to worry about food anymore. But. I still don’t have enough savings to live off of if I lose my job, am still one serious accident away from bankruptcy, etc. the way I’ve explained it is that I now have something to lose, not that I’ve gained all that much outside of benefits (I now have two front teeth!) Maybe the point I’m trying to make with my anecdote is that making $$$ isn’t the same as having $$$, high CoL or not.
- bumby 6y ago
  >the point I’m trying to make with my anecdote is that making $$$ isn’t the same as having $$$ This is very true but I feel like it misses the point. Making $$$ gives you resources to have many things that are outside the grasp of the majority. (Whether you squander that opportunity or not is up to you) There’s nothing wrong with that, but feeling like you are disadvantaged when you have access to more than most comes across as out of touch. I think there’s probably some hedonic treadmill effects here. Thinking at one point in your life “if I can make $200k a year, I’ll be rich” and “feeling rich” once you get there may not align as often as we’d hope. But you likely live a rather “rich” lifestyle compared to those making $40k/yr. I also think there’s often comparative effects that reduce how it feels. $200k feels low once you realize your neighbor who owns a landscaping company pulls $400k.
okprod 6y ago
I find it tone deaf because the vast majority of people are getting by on much, much less. I said $200K isn't that much because I was responding to the article saying $200K is in the 1%-5% and those making that much use offshore tax shelters and other practices. $200K immediately becomes what, $140K or less after taxes? My original comment still stands; I don't think someone making $140K is in the top percentages of wealth and hiding their money in offshore schemes. So to say it isn’t much comes across as oblivious to the way most people live, and potentially not aware of the problems that the average person faces. I spent a decade working in the nonprofit sector with low-income, homeless, addicts, etc., with my first job at $24K and my last job in the sector at $55K. I think I'm somewhat aware of what the average person faces. You and others on my post have covered things adequately, but I would just add that sometimes things aren't about lifestyle choices/sometimes there are no "good" choices -- If you have to pay $3K for rent in an average apartment because it's close to your new job that pays more, really the only other option besides not taking the job is to move farther out, but then you pay more in transportation, insurance, parking, etc.
- bumby 6y ago
  >I don't think someone making $140K is in the top percentages of wealth and hiding their money in offshore schemes. I agree, this income doesn't feel indicative of those type of tax avoidance plays. But I think making $200k is still objectively "a lot", if for no other reason than it is statistically proving one to be in the top 5%. I don't know a better way to define it because the subjective scale will always hold true; someone in the top 1% will feel inadequate to someone in top 0.1% who will feel inadequate compared to a Saudi prince. I guess what I'm trying to get across is that both can be true: 1) a salary of $X amount can objectively be high and 2) somebody earning $X can subjectively not feel like it's enough. The dissonance between the two is created because of the way we're wired to gauge our position relative to those around us.