9 ms·

The answer to that is in the article. The information is accessible. It is possible to become a programmer without any formal certification, all the information

by leifg 6y ago

The answer to that is in the article. The information is accessible. It is possible to become a programmer without any formal certification, all the information is out there. AFAIK all the jobs you mentioned need a formal certification. You can't become a doctor without going to med school. You can't become a lawyer without passing the bar. Even if you don't (not sure about a car mechanic, depending on the country), it's a lot a harder to get your hands on a car to tinker with than it is to download some framework and watch a get started video. That's what the author said with programming is accessible. It is very easy to get started which is often misrepresented as "it's easy". No one would say "becoming a doctor is easy" because you're never gonna be a doctor from online documentation and YouTube videos so there is no incentive to frame it that way.

bonoboTP 6y ago
Alright. Programming is like soccer. The barrier of entry is very low, but it doesn't mean every poor Brazilian kid will be a football genius. But they sure won't be golf world champion. I grew up relatively poor in Hungary. Programming has been a great path to a good job for me, while it would have been more difficult to earn the same as a lawyer without connections. Programming levels the playing field compared to gatekept jobs where you must be born into a dynasty to really make it. In that sense it's easy. But it will still only be a part of the population who are well suited to do it.
- leifg 6y ago
  Fair point. It's all relative. By that definition it's much easier to become a programmer than to become a lawyer. 100% agree. Programming has a very appealing second property: there are tons of good paying jobs out there. And I think this combination of "you can get started super easy" and "you will earn above average" are two dangerous properties.
- throw1234651234 6y ago
  It's definitely the poor man's "good job" (I say that as a poor man) - med school is just not accessible to most people. At the very least, it's not accessible to the poor without laser-focus and being very lucky for about 15 years between about 15 and 30. Oh, and living on scraps.
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  > it doesn't mean every poor Brazilian kid will be a football genius This analogy always comes up in relation to programming, but I think it's not quite right: you don't have to be the equivalent of a "football genius" to be an effective programmer. If there was the same market for soccer players as there were for programmers, a lot more people would be professional soccer players - there are so few, and the ones that make it are so far ahead of everybody else, because there just aren't that many spots available.
  - bonoboTP 6y ago
    Well, what regulates the amount of available spots in professional football? Why can't people create additional teams and play exciting matches that draw paying audiences? Is the bottleneck that spectator attention is already maxed out? But yes, the analogy is faulty if the bottleneck in football is the availability of the spots, because in programming the bottleneck is rather the availability of good enough new hires. We may be around the point where CS programmes have grown so much over the years that the marginal additional student may not have that good potential any more (out of a combination of motivation and talent). But a potential reserve talent to tap into could be women, but attracting them to programming has been an uphill battle and is a can-of-worms topic why.
    - pjc50 6y ago
      > what regulates the amount of available spots in professional football? You're only allowed 11 people on the pitch per side. Believe me, if it were possible to replace Ronaldo with a thousand less-skilled players paid a fraction of his wages, somebody would have tried it. You could even suggest hiring them for fractions of a match on an internet employment brokerage platform. Footballr.
      - bonoboTP 6y ago
        Okay, I agree it's not a perfect analogy but the football:golf = programming:law still holds I think. But I do agree that spectator sports are more winner-takes-all than programming jobs.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  Programming is not like soccer and golf, because people with great talent and skill for soccer and golf are all over the media. People who do not have major skill can look at them and compare their own skill level. But I think the OP (unintentionally) makes a telling point, which is that accessibility is confused with simplicity. We're seeing this in medicine now. Anyone can Google whatever so they're go to their doctors with Dunning Kruger on max and and say things that are really really stupid. Or they try to understand what's happening. And because they're spending hours on something the doctor spends a few minutes on, they - occasionally - manage to have an insight the doctor misses. Either way, medicine isn't quite the ineffably mysterious occupation it used to be. Of course it's not really any less complex, but the wall has been breached a little. The arts are similar. It's easy to buy some paint, so everyone has a go. It's easy to buy a guitar or synth and a DAW, so everyone has a go. The skill and learning required to be an expert becomes invisible because beginners try things, get unsophisticated results that make them happy but are a long way short of the real thing, and think "Well, that's not so hard." The problem isn't verbal gatekeeping, it's the lack of media representation of high levels of skill and professionalism. They're either portrayed as unimaginably mysterious, as soapy and trite (see most legal dramas), or as "And you can too..." There are few realistic depictions of the skill, knowledge, and practice required to be a professional in any field. Or of the insights and perceptions that professionals experience, but which untrained people don't.
  - bonoboTP 6y ago
    > There are few realistic depictions of the skill, knowledge, and practice required to be a professional in any field. YouTube is pretty good for this, both educational channels and edutainment (like Computerphile) and candid videos of people sharing their professional experience. Or code-alongs etc.
csomar 6y ago
> You can't become a lawyer without passing the bar. In states where you don't need to go to Law school and anyone can pass the bar, doesn't this make the field accessible? The bar cost $100-$1300 depending on the state + travel costs which is not that far from a good laptop cost to do any meaningful programming. You'll probably need a $200 laptop and an internet connection. You can do paralegal freelancing in the same way you can do small programming jobs. Edit: Writing is also accessible. Accounting is also accessible, though if you are becoming a CPA you need some college credits. Online marketing is accessible. Trading is also accessible. All of these can be done from the comfort of your couch and only need a laptop with an Internet connection.
- watwut 6y ago
  Afaik, it is extraordinary rare to pass the bar without going to Law school. That test is quite difficult.
  - mamon 6y ago
    Test being difficult is not a problem, we want our lawyers to be competent, after all. The more important part is if it is fair. In Poland bar exam had been famous for near impossible questions, which were only answered correctly by applicants that knew them in advance, which typically were family members of already practicing attorneys/judges.
  - csomar 6y ago
    But that's beyond the point, right? The question is whether it is accessible. Which for some states it is, and could be done by reading material. The same can be said about programming and software development.
    - watwut 6y ago
      My point precisely is that you can't pass just by "reading material". It is too hard for that.
- dizzystar 6y ago
kuu 6y ago
> "because you're never gonna be a doctor from online documentation and YouTube videos" You're not gonna become a legal doctor, but I assure you that online you have many many information and videos that teach you the same as they teach you in university. You just need to organize them - and probably some are already part of current pandemic forced online classes The complicated part may be to obtain corpses to make the practices... /s
- lnjarroyo 6y ago
  I would argue that those corpses(or whatever it is they do in med school) are quite important. I don't think any amount of "book-smarts" can override actual practical experience. At least for me, I can't imagine I would be able to write a program if I had read several books but never opened a code editor. I believe it must be similar for doctors. Even if you read about lots of diseases and their symptoms, how do you go about diagnosing diseases with complex, overlapping attributes without any kind of experience besides what you read in a book to relate to?
  - kuu 6y ago
    Yeah, that's the reason there is an `/s` in the comment, it was an ironic joke ;)
majkinetor 6y ago
The information is accessible for any other profession really - you talk here about politics not about knowledge. You can learn to be a doctor or lawyer on the internet for sure. Can you practice it ? It depends. Some self learned programmers can't get a job in some companies too because they don't have formal education.
fridif 6y ago
You absolutely don't need a formal certification to be a mechanic or welder.

by leifg 6y ago

bonoboTP 6y ago

Alright. Programming is like soccer. The barrier of entry is very low, but it doesn't mean every poor Brazilian kid will be a football genius. But they sure won't be golf world champion. I grew up relatively poor in Hungary. Programming has been a great path to a good job for me, while it would have been more difficult to earn the same as a lawyer without connections. Programming levels the playing field compared to gatekept jobs where you must be born into a dynasty to really make it. In that sense it's easy. But it will still only be a part of the population who are well suited to do it.

leifg 6y ago
Fair point. It's all relative. By that definition it's much easier to become a programmer than to become a lawyer. 100% agree. Programming has a very appealing second property: there are tons of good paying jobs out there. And I think this combination of "you can get started super easy" and "you will earn above average" are two dangerous properties.
throw1234651234 6y ago
It's definitely the poor man's "good job" (I say that as a poor man) - med school is just not accessible to most people. At the very least, it's not accessible to the poor without laser-focus and being very lucky for about 15 years between about 15 and 30. Oh, and living on scraps.
commandlinefan 6y ago
> it doesn't mean every poor Brazilian kid will be a football genius This analogy always comes up in relation to programming, but I think it's not quite right: you don't have to be the equivalent of a "football genius" to be an effective programmer. If there was the same market for soccer players as there were for programmers, a lot more people would be professional soccer players - there are so few, and the ones that make it are so far ahead of everybody else, because there just aren't that many spots available.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  Well, what regulates the amount of available spots in professional football? Why can't people create additional teams and play exciting matches that draw paying audiences? Is the bottleneck that spectator attention is already maxed out? But yes, the analogy is faulty if the bottleneck in football is the availability of the spots, because in programming the bottleneck is rather the availability of good enough new hires. We may be around the point where CS programmes have grown so much over the years that the marginal additional student may not have that good potential any more (out of a combination of motivation and talent). But a potential reserve talent to tap into could be women, but attracting them to programming has been an uphill battle and is a can-of-worms topic why.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    > what regulates the amount of available spots in professional football? You're only allowed 11 people on the pitch per side. Believe me, if it were possible to replace Ronaldo with a thousand less-skilled players paid a fraction of his wages, somebody would have tried it. You could even suggest hiring them for fractions of a match on an internet employment brokerage platform. Footballr.
    - bonoboTP 6y ago
      Okay, I agree it's not a perfect analogy but the football:golf = programming:law still holds I think. But I do agree that spectator sports are more winner-takes-all than programming jobs.
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
Programming is not like soccer and golf, because people with great talent and skill for soccer and golf are all over the media. People who do not have major skill can look at them and compare their own skill level. But I think the OP (unintentionally) makes a telling point, which is that accessibility is confused with simplicity. We're seeing this in medicine now. Anyone can Google whatever so they're go to their doctors with Dunning Kruger on max and and say things that are really really stupid. Or they try to understand what's happening. And because they're spending hours on something the doctor spends a few minutes on, they - occasionally - manage to have an insight the doctor misses. Either way, medicine isn't quite the ineffably mysterious occupation it used to be. Of course it's not really any less complex, but the wall has been breached a little. The arts are similar. It's easy to buy some paint, so everyone has a go. It's easy to buy a guitar or synth and a DAW, so everyone has a go. The skill and learning required to be an expert becomes invisible because beginners try things, get unsophisticated results that make them happy but are a long way short of the real thing, and think "Well, that's not so hard." The problem isn't verbal gatekeeping, it's the lack of media representation of high levels of skill and professionalism. They're either portrayed as unimaginably mysterious, as soapy and trite (see most legal dramas), or as "And you can too..." There are few realistic depictions of the skill, knowledge, and practice required to be a professional in any field. Or of the insights and perceptions that professionals experience, but which untrained people don't.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  > There are few realistic depictions of the skill, knowledge, and practice required to be a professional in any field. YouTube is pretty good for this, both educational channels and edutainment (like Computerphile) and candid videos of people sharing their professional experience. Or code-alongs etc.

csomar 6y ago

> You can't become a lawyer without passing the bar. In states where you don't need to go to Law school and anyone can pass the bar, doesn't this make the field accessible? The bar cost $100-$1300 depending on the state + travel costs which is not that far from a good laptop cost to do any meaningful programming. You'll probably need a $200 laptop and an internet connection. You can do paralegal freelancing in the same way you can do small programming jobs. Edit: Writing is also accessible. Accounting is also accessible, though if you are becoming a CPA you need some college credits. Online marketing is accessible. Trading is also accessible. All of these can be done from the comfort of your couch and only need a laptop with an Internet connection.

watwut 6y ago
Afaik, it is extraordinary rare to pass the bar without going to Law school. That test is quite difficult.
- mamon 6y ago
  Test being difficult is not a problem, we want our lawyers to be competent, after all. The more important part is if it is fair. In Poland bar exam had been famous for near impossible questions, which were only answered correctly by applicants that knew them in advance, which typically were family members of already practicing attorneys/judges.
- csomar 6y ago
  But that's beyond the point, right? The question is whether it is accessible. Which for some states it is, and could be done by reading material. The same can be said about programming and software development.
  - watwut 6y ago
    My point precisely is that you can't pass just by "reading material". It is too hard for that.
dizzystar 6y ago

kuu 6y ago

> "because you're never gonna be a doctor from online documentation and YouTube videos" You're not gonna become a legal doctor, but I assure you that online you have many many information and videos that teach you the same as they teach you in university. You just need to organize them - and probably some are already part of current pandemic forced online classes The complicated part may be to obtain corpses to make the practices... /s

lnjarroyo 6y ago
I would argue that those corpses(or whatever it is they do in med school) are quite important. I don't think any amount of "book-smarts" can override actual practical experience. At least for me, I can't imagine I would be able to write a program if I had read several books but never opened a code editor. I believe it must be similar for doctors. Even if you read about lots of diseases and their symptoms, how do you go about diagnosing diseases with complex, overlapping attributes without any kind of experience besides what you read in a book to relate to?
- kuu 6y ago
  Yeah, that's the reason there is an `/s` in the comment, it was an ironic joke ;)

majkinetor 6y ago

The information is accessible for any other profession really - you talk here about politics not about knowledge. You can learn to be a doctor or lawyer on the internet for sure. Can you practice it ? It depends. Some self learned programmers can't get a job in some companies too because they don't have formal education.

fridif 6y ago

You absolutely don't need a formal certification to be a mechanic or welder.