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Why is this always discussed only in relation to programming? Is being a doctor hard? How about an architect? Lawyer? Welder? Car mechanic? Airline pilot? Are t

Why is this always discussed only in relation to programming? Is being a doctor hard? How about an architect? Lawyer? Welder? Car mechanic? Airline pilot? Are they all gatekeepers if they say their job is hard? There are different jobs labeled as programming, some easier, some harder. Where does this narrative come from that programming at all professional levels must be easy for everyone, else you are a gatekeeper? Is it anxiety about future automation and the idea that the only remaining jobs will be programming?

luckylion 6y ago
Maybe the difference is that most/all (I don't know about welders, but I guess) of those jobs have literal gatekeepers, i.e. you need some certification to do it.
- naavis 6y ago
  There are definitely certifications for welders, especially if you need to weld something that human lives depend on.
  - lanstin 6y ago
    The important welders.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  There's licensing for hairdressers in most states - without having checked, I guarantee you there's certifications for welders.
Jtsummers 6y ago
There aren't people out there saying those jobs are "easy" and anyone can do it in the way we have for programming. So why would it be discussed with those other jobs?
leifg 6y ago
The answer to that is in the article. The information is accessible. It is possible to become a programmer without any formal certification, all the information is out there. AFAIK all the jobs you mentioned need a formal certification. You can't become a doctor without going to med school. You can't become a lawyer without passing the bar. Even if you don't (not sure about a car mechanic, depending on the country), it's a lot a harder to get your hands on a car to tinker with than it is to download some framework and watch a get started video. That's what the author said with programming is accessible. It is very easy to get started which is often misrepresented as "it's easy". No one would say "becoming a doctor is easy" because you're never gonna be a doctor from online documentation and YouTube videos so there is no incentive to frame it that way.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  Alright. Programming is like soccer. The barrier of entry is very low, but it doesn't mean every poor Brazilian kid will be a football genius. But they sure won't be golf world champion. I grew up relatively poor in Hungary. Programming has been a great path to a good job for me, while it would have been more difficult to earn the same as a lawyer without connections. Programming levels the playing field compared to gatekept jobs where you must be born into a dynasty to really make it. In that sense it's easy. But it will still only be a part of the population who are well suited to do it.
  - leifg 6y ago
    Fair point. It's all relative. By that definition it's much easier to become a programmer than to become a lawyer. 100% agree. Programming has a very appealing second property: there are tons of good paying jobs out there. And I think this combination of "you can get started super easy" and "you will earn above average" are two dangerous properties.
  - throw1234651234 6y ago
    It's definitely the poor man's "good job" (I say that as a poor man) - med school is just not accessible to most people. At the very least, it's not accessible to the poor without laser-focus and being very lucky for about 15 years between about 15 and 30. Oh, and living on scraps.
david-gpu 6y ago
I think this is typically heard in response to people suggesting "learning to code on the side". You don't hear suggestions of "learning to become a lawyer/doctor on the side". Why is that? I guess it's probably a combination of software development not requiring a license and people believing that it's easy to learn.
- exdsq 6y ago
  Anecdotal but I know a few people who became lawyers on the side by studying the graduate diploma in law part time and then changing careers. It’s not as common, but it’s not as rare as you’d imagine!
- throw1234651234 6y ago
  You can become a mechanic or a pilot on the side though. Even a paramedic.
- booleandilemma 6y ago
  Writing software is closer to learning how to draw or how to carve wood. It’s a thing you can “do” over the weekend, it’s fun, and it’s practical. After writing hello world you can call yourself a programmer, which sounds impressive. It’s much harder to even get to hello world for a doctor or a lawyer. Of course, there’s a long road to doing it well. I can call myself an artist for having used a paintbrush before, but I’m not actually an artist by any sane definition.
happytoexplain 6y ago
It's not usually an issue with those professions, where there are more reliable mechanisms both to observe the consequences of not being good enough, and to reject those who would produce such work. Also, there is zero barrier to entry for programming. These are powerful differences.
- rafaelero 6y ago
  >there are more reliable mechanisms both to observe the consequences of not being good enough. Are there? Doctors are one of the main causes of death nowadays and it doesn't appear to exist many pushbacks.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dt3ft 6y ago
I'd venture this guess: because programming is presented everywhere as something easy, with a ton of "hello world" tutorials which don't even begin to scratch the surface. "Everyone can do it" is thrown left and right. Man are they in for a surprise, when they are introduced to tons of poorly written legacy code used by, say, critical medical systems. Think spaghetti code and text-file interfaces with dozens of systems but on a whole new level, likes of which is hard to even imagine. Damn right, programming is hard, and it is getting harder with every line of code people write. Note: in this example, I bunched programming with maintaining together. If you only write code for new features without taking into account existing or legacy code, you're a lucky son of a gun.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  > I'd venture this guess: because programming is presented everywhere as something easy I'd say that's an overreaction to the default presentation where coders are genius wizard wunderkind hackers from the movies. I don't know about your experience, but whenever I say I'm a programmer (or more directly translated "informatician") in a mixed group, everyone thinks that' must be rocket surgery. Perhaps kids in specific countries now grow up being told that it's easy, but I think the 25-30+ years old cohort thinks programming is hard and only for the really smart people.
  - dt3ft 6y ago
    I agree that kids are now growing up being told that it's easy. Here's a possible scenario: 1. we tell kids it's easy in order to get them interested 2. those who are interested, learn with time that it isn't as easy but love it anyway 3. those that are not interested, which is probably the majority, still go home thinking it's easy
  - screye 6y ago
    > whenever I say I'm a programmer It's funny to see how different reactions in different cultures are. In India, being a programmer will be looked at with exhaustion and judgement. Sorta,"Oh you too? Get in line."
maire 6y ago
The reason why it always comes up is because programmers are relatively well paid yet nobody really understands what we do. Therefore you get these really silly memes such as if a factory worker's job is outsourced, you can just retrain them to be a programmer. Or the only reason why some downtrodden group is not a programmer is because they were prevented by someone from being a programmer. The thing that is ridiculous about the memes is that programming is the only field that is completely clear of gatekeepers. You don't have to go to college to be a programmer - the top programming coursework is available online for free (or nearly free). If you want to be credible as a programmer, there are plenty of open source projects that would welcome you. Compare that to doctors or lawyers which really do need college degrees and certification.
- marsven_422 6y ago
  Programming is a high IQ occupation and that's why your average factory worked will not learn to code.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  I feel like this is also top-down status anxiety from the traditionally high-status people (lawyers, doctors, academics, managers etc.) who really don't like that these prole nobodies are suddenly making good money, without being properly embedded in the elite caste and their manners. So they keep kicking and biting down to say how what we do is really just some blue-collar monkeying around that any janitor could do starting tomorrow, and the real, hard, serious jobs are still in their realm.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    Definitely. Doesn't help that a lot of prominent figures are also drop outs (Zuckerberg, Gates, Wozniak, Jobs, Musk, the list goes on). Doctors insist on having everyone call them "Dr" and each-others too. They get their prestige from their tittles. Meanwhile Bill Gates is just... Bill Gates. No prefix needed!
- pjc50 6y ago
  It's not clear of gatekeepers, they're just moved to a different point in the process, and scattered about the industry. You don't hear about doctors being given a mystery patient and forty-five minutes to save their life using only a whiteboard; once you've got the qualifications, they're not subject to anything like the same level of challenge.
travisjungroth 6y ago
I'm not sure. I've been both a pilot and a software engineer and the narratives are very different. I've also helped people get into both fields (owned a flight school, mentored programmers). I don't think I've head anybody say "Anyone can be a pilot!". Becoming a pilot is inaccessible. There are medical qualifications. It's expensive. A degree helps a lot (or is required) for airline jobs. Self-limiting beliefs keep _some_ people from being pilots. So there are outreach events (Young Eagles being one) that introduce people to flying. The military recruits at events. But it's more this "maybe you could be a pilot. just consider it." vibe. Programming is accessible (as the article points out). I spent less than $200 in materials to get a good job as a software engineer. (Throw in $500 for a computer if you want). Self limiting-beliefs make up a much larger component (but not all!) of why people can't become professional software engineers. I think this leads to people overreaching during the outreach phase. If it's only a few hundred dollars, focus and time, then the only thing stopping you is yourself! Well, no. Let's just start at the left end of the curve and acknowledge there are adults who can't count to five. They're humans, they're people, they're part of "anybody", but they absolutely will never be programmers. And then it's just a spectrum from there. The reality (like most realities) is more complex than can what fit on a sticker. Some people think they can't program, but could. You don't have to be great at math, but it can help and they're similar mindsets. An expensive education isn't required, but helps with careers. Programming is hard. But maybe you can do something harder than you think.
odyssey7 6y ago
Our profession is misunderstood by the public, and some effort is required to let people know that this is in fact high-skill, demanding work. Recently, a non-technical executive berated me for not working faster. I wanted to tell him, "would you say that to your accountant, who just worked an 80-hour week to help you meet your obligations on time, continuing to receive new spreadsheets all the while?"
- tyloop 6y ago
  Actually, often you can tell him. It is way harder to get fired than many technical people think.
  - lanstin 6y ago
    Key insight. In a field with such a deficit of excellence, you can’t be exploited without your own buy in. Except maybe with certain classes of visa troubles.
ehnto 6y ago
I have found welding to have a similar community mindset to programming, for some people it's a job, for some it's art, most people think it's too hard for them, getting into it is easy and mastering it is hard. Car mechanics too, run of the mill mechanics shop doing oil changes doesn't require that much to be competent at, but that's barely scratching the surface. Within the mechanic profession and you can go all the way from oil changer to mechanical engineer. Consider motorsport workshops, specialist restoration workshops, custom fabrication, aero design, engine building, machining, performance wiring, ECU tuning. It's a huge topic. I find that is the case with almost anything though. Very few things are all that shallow. I have to remind myself of that if I disregard something someone enjoys. Sports fans? Yeah some of it could be shallow, but sports nerds go hard, there is crazy depth to sports fandom. Same with TV shows, video games, telephone pole enthusiasts. So I guess my overall point is, the question "Is X job hard?" isn't really answerable, since we don't know exactly what part of the job the person is targeting from the question.
tyloop 6y ago
The people who are doing the work in programming are not assertive on average and are prone to be taken advantage of. This is not a criticism; in a way you need to isolate yourself from realities of human politics to be successful in the field. So in the last decade many socially dominant people who smelled the money have invaded open source. They have realized that you can make a living by posing as team leads and not doing much. The real workers have let them in, have given them power and are now facing the consequences (ha, finally we can use that term, too!). Other professions like law and medicine aren't remotely as naive. They are acutely aware of power struggles, protecting their professions and won't let this happen.
- booleandilemma 6y ago
  Completely agree. If I had a dime for every project owner, project manager, team lead, or <insert made-up job title> I’ve worked with who has absolutely no technical experience or knowledge I’d have over a dollar already. These people invariably majored in something like english, dance, or music studies and then wind up doing project management because, as you pointed out, they’re after the money and no one is stopping them.
- englund 6y ago
  Invaded open source? I can't think of any open source projects not run by programmers.
watwut 6y ago
I honestly think that there are many people who exaggerate how difficult programming is. And people really like to think that if you already dont know a lot, then you are naturally crappy and cant learn. The professions you mentioned require a lot of learning. The expectation is that you go to school knowing what high school taught you, then you learn basics and then you continue learning on your own. The expectation is that there is learning curve. I think I am good programmer. When I was younger and considering it as a profession, I was told that it is hard and that I should think twice seriously before comitting myself to it. That som of the guys that are already coding are very good and I will compete against them. There is gatekeeping related to claimed difficulty. There is also perception that either you know it or not, but that you should not expect learning curve. Also, passionate people of all kinds of professions trying do this exact thing. Whether art or tech or sport, adults go out of their way to signal to kids that "you can do it too, join us doing this thing".
neogodless 6y ago
I think the question might be "why might someone gatekeep at all?" As a software developer, I love working with developers that are competent, and especially if I'm learning a lot just by being on projects with them. I do not love working with developers who actively decrease the quality of the code base because they do not understand what quality is. Now, that can be relative, and subjective. I'm quite open to junior developers trying things, asking questions, requesting code reviews, etc. But some people get a senior title and a confidence about their work, and charge ahead generating extra work for those around them. So I'd rather such people were, perhaps, not in the field at all! In general, though, I would like to encourage lots of people to try programming. From my perspective, it's super empowering, interesting, deep and can be a great career choice. Try it, and if it interests you, and you find yourself driven to improve, learn new things, and seek mastery, we're really going to enjoy having you here in the field with us. There are aspects of programming that almost anyone considering the field could try and learn and see some success at. But it helps to understand that you may discover your own limits (whether by talent, motivation, or opportunity) sooner or later in the field, because there are aspects that are much less approachable. Do you want to spend countless hours preparing for algorithmic whiteboard interviews? Do you want to bury your head in code while stepping meticulously through a debugger on a squeegee hunt for an edge case? Do you want to optimize relentlessly when the scenario requires it? If software is eating the world, we'll need a lot of developers. And we'll want some that are happy to do grunt work while others forge into the most treacherous waters. But we don't want you to think that all software development is easy, because it's not.
- waylandsmithers 6y ago
  > I think the question might be "why might someone gatekeep at all?" We'd always go through the same thing with folks who were new to interviewing with a candidate who couldn't quite cut it. In the following discussion they'd be hesitant to say no and maybe go into how they seemed nice or whatever. Then we'd ask "Ok, would you want them starting on your project with you tomorrow?" Well, no...
jeffreyrogers 6y ago
> Is being a doctor hard? I have a friend who is a surgeon who says he hardly uses anything he learned in medical school and that he could teach a carpenter to do his job. (I think he is exaggerating a bit, but it's a funny anecdote).
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  Surgery is very specialized knowledge. I'm sure he's using the fundamentals he learned in med school more than he thinks, but yeah everything in psychiatry, pediatrics and obstetrics most likely not.
- SkyPuncher 6y ago
  My wife is a physician, but not a surgeon. Most of medicine is relatively routine. A surgeon's skill isn't so much in the 99% of cases, but the 1% that have adverse outcomes. More importantly, their skill comes in identifying the possibility of adverse outcomes and preventing them from ever happening. Me and you could easily be taught to do a routine surgery, like an appendectomy. However, we wouldn't be able to identify if something requires more treatment or prevent a patient from dying if things don't go perfect.
  - nullspace 6y ago
    Isn't it very similar for programmers? I don't get paid >100k for knowing how to create a button with boostrap and jQuery, but rather for the 1% of the time where I need to do something 1000x more complicated
    - SkyPuncher 6y ago
      Yes. It's the same for a lot of fields.
brundolf 6y ago
> programming at all professional levels must be easy for everyone, else you are a gatekeeper I've literally never heard anybody say this. Best I can tell it's a straw-man the author has stood up. Part of the problem is the ambiguity of the words "easy" and "hard", which would be a valid discussion to have, but the OP didn't really seem interested in that aspect, and chose instead to interpret things in the least-charitable way possible.
13415 6y ago
The examples you give in support of your thesis are strange. The idea that programming is hard is about as pretentious and wrong as saying that being a doctor, architect, lawyer, welder, car mechanic, or airline pilot is hard. Almost anyone with a basic level of intelligence and the willingness to put the efforts into it can learn any of the above professions, and programming is not different from them. It's not hard, although there are some hard areas you'd like to get done by a CS graduate or an engineer. There are professions that are hard or simply require some special and maybe rare talent, but like most other professions programming is not one of them.
- ivanche 6y ago
  What? You enumerated some of the hardest professions in the world and dismissed them as "not hard"! How many car mechanics you've seen turning into architect? How many developers you've seen becoming lwayers? How many lawyers became doctors? If one doesn't have drawing talent and sense of perspective, becoming an architect is almost impossible. No amount of work will fill for that. If one gets lost while moving in 3D, no way they'll become an airline pilot, ever. If one doesn't get mechanics and principles of how cars/engines works and has a talent for working with literally dozens of tools, they won't become a car mechanic ever.
  - 13415 6y ago
    Some of the hardest professions? You've got to be kidding me... OP could have mentioned sculptors, theoretical physicists, athletes, or singers but chose to list completely normal professions. Just like programming. But the biggest mistake of this pretentious article and the whole thread is to talk of programming as if that was some uniform profession. It's ridiculous to assume that making an iPhone app requires the same skill set as programming a rocket guidance system. Maybe the self-proclaimed gatekeepers of "programming" like the author of this blog post should start by actually creating a profession called "programming" before they try to gate-keep it.
overgard 6y ago
I think it's literally because those other professions have strong gate-keeping institutions (licenses, etc), and programming doesn't. For better or worse I think that influences the perceived difficulty and prestige. (Note, I'm not suggesting that we need gate-keeping institutions, just that they do have an effect on how professions are seen). I think programmers are also sort of at fault for this. How many people try to increase their perceived status by talking about how some hard thing is actually super easy to them? While it might elevate their status among their peers, it reduces the status of the profession as a whole (granted in microscopic increments, but still, if a project manager hears "this is easy" all the time, they're going to start thinking these things are easy). Finally, I also think as a profession we don't do a great job of just presenting ourselves as professionals. How many coders (myself included) tend to look like slobs all the time? If you watch TV, all the other professions look sharp, and anyone tech related tends to look like they just climbed out of bed. Just saying, perception matters a ton.

luckylion 6y ago

Maybe the difference is that most/all (I don't know about welders, but I guess) of those jobs have literal gatekeepers, i.e. you need some certification to do it.

naavis 6y ago
There are definitely certifications for welders, especially if you need to weld something that human lives depend on.
- lanstin 6y ago
  The important welders.
arcticbull 6y ago
There's licensing for hairdressers in most states - without having checked, I guarantee you there's certifications for welders.

Jtsummers 6y ago

There aren't people out there saying those jobs are "easy" and anyone can do it in the way we have for programming. So why would it be discussed with those other jobs?

leifg 6y ago

The answer to that is in the article. The information is accessible. It is possible to become a programmer without any formal certification, all the information is out there. AFAIK all the jobs you mentioned need a formal certification. You can't become a doctor without going to med school. You can't become a lawyer without passing the bar. Even if you don't (not sure about a car mechanic, depending on the country), it's a lot a harder to get your hands on a car to tinker with than it is to download some framework and watch a get started video. That's what the author said with programming is accessible. It is very easy to get started which is often misrepresented as "it's easy". No one would say "becoming a doctor is easy" because you're never gonna be a doctor from online documentation and YouTube videos so there is no incentive to frame it that way.

bonoboTP 6y ago
Alright. Programming is like soccer. The barrier of entry is very low, but it doesn't mean every poor Brazilian kid will be a football genius. But they sure won't be golf world champion. I grew up relatively poor in Hungary. Programming has been a great path to a good job for me, while it would have been more difficult to earn the same as a lawyer without connections. Programming levels the playing field compared to gatekept jobs where you must be born into a dynasty to really make it. In that sense it's easy. But it will still only be a part of the population who are well suited to do it.
- leifg 6y ago
  Fair point. It's all relative. By that definition it's much easier to become a programmer than to become a lawyer. 100% agree. Programming has a very appealing second property: there are tons of good paying jobs out there. And I think this combination of "you can get started super easy" and "you will earn above average" are two dangerous properties.
- throw1234651234 6y ago
  It's definitely the poor man's "good job" (I say that as a poor man) - med school is just not accessible to most people. At the very least, it's not accessible to the poor without laser-focus and being very lucky for about 15 years between about 15 and 30. Oh, and living on scraps.

david-gpu 6y ago

I think this is typically heard in response to people suggesting "learning to code on the side". You don't hear suggestions of "learning to become a lawyer/doctor on the side". Why is that? I guess it's probably a combination of software development not requiring a license and people believing that it's easy to learn.

exdsq 6y ago
Anecdotal but I know a few people who became lawyers on the side by studying the graduate diploma in law part time and then changing careers. It’s not as common, but it’s not as rare as you’d imagine!
throw1234651234 6y ago
You can become a mechanic or a pilot on the side though. Even a paramedic.
booleandilemma 6y ago
Writing software is closer to learning how to draw or how to carve wood. It’s a thing you can “do” over the weekend, it’s fun, and it’s practical. After writing hello world you can call yourself a programmer, which sounds impressive. It’s much harder to even get to hello world for a doctor or a lawyer. Of course, there’s a long road to doing it well. I can call myself an artist for having used a paintbrush before, but I’m not actually an artist by any sane definition.

happytoexplain 6y ago

It's not usually an issue with those professions, where there are more reliable mechanisms both to observe the consequences of not being good enough, and to reject those who would produce such work. Also, there is zero barrier to entry for programming. These are powerful differences.

rafaelero 6y ago
>there are more reliable mechanisms both to observe the consequences of not being good enough. Are there? Doctors are one of the main causes of death nowadays and it doesn't appear to exist many pushbacks.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dt3ft 6y ago

I'd venture this guess: because programming is presented everywhere as something easy, with a ton of "hello world" tutorials which don't even begin to scratch the surface. "Everyone can do it" is thrown left and right. Man are they in for a surprise, when they are introduced to tons of poorly written legacy code used by, say, critical medical systems. Think spaghetti code and text-file interfaces with dozens of systems but on a whole new level, likes of which is hard to even imagine. Damn right, programming is hard, and it is getting harder with every line of code people write. Note: in this example, I bunched programming with maintaining together. If you only write code for new features without taking into account existing or legacy code, you're a lucky son of a gun.

bonoboTP 6y ago
> I'd venture this guess: because programming is presented everywhere as something easy I'd say that's an overreaction to the default presentation where coders are genius wizard wunderkind hackers from the movies. I don't know about your experience, but whenever I say I'm a programmer (or more directly translated "informatician") in a mixed group, everyone thinks that' must be rocket surgery. Perhaps kids in specific countries now grow up being told that it's easy, but I think the 25-30+ years old cohort thinks programming is hard and only for the really smart people.
- dt3ft 6y ago
  I agree that kids are now growing up being told that it's easy. Here's a possible scenario: 1. we tell kids it's easy in order to get them interested 2. those who are interested, learn with time that it isn't as easy but love it anyway 3. those that are not interested, which is probably the majority, still go home thinking it's easy
- screye 6y ago
  > whenever I say I'm a programmer It's funny to see how different reactions in different cultures are. In India, being a programmer will be looked at with exhaustion and judgement. Sorta,"Oh you too? Get in line."

maire 6y ago

The reason why it always comes up is because programmers are relatively well paid yet nobody really understands what we do. Therefore you get these really silly memes such as if a factory worker's job is outsourced, you can just retrain them to be a programmer. Or the only reason why some downtrodden group is not a programmer is because they were prevented by someone from being a programmer. The thing that is ridiculous about the memes is that programming is the only field that is completely clear of gatekeepers. You don't have to go to college to be a programmer - the top programming coursework is available online for free (or nearly free). If you want to be credible as a programmer, there are plenty of open source projects that would welcome you. Compare that to doctors or lawyers which really do need college degrees and certification.

marsven_422 6y ago
Programming is a high IQ occupation and that's why your average factory worked will not learn to code.
bonoboTP 6y ago
I feel like this is also top-down status anxiety from the traditionally high-status people (lawyers, doctors, academics, managers etc.) who really don't like that these prole nobodies are suddenly making good money, without being properly embedded in the elite caste and their manners. So they keep kicking and biting down to say how what we do is really just some blue-collar monkeying around that any janitor could do starting tomorrow, and the real, hard, serious jobs are still in their realm.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  Definitely. Doesn't help that a lot of prominent figures are also drop outs (Zuckerberg, Gates, Wozniak, Jobs, Musk, the list goes on). Doctors insist on having everyone call them "Dr" and each-others too. They get their prestige from their tittles. Meanwhile Bill Gates is just... Bill Gates. No prefix needed!
pjc50 6y ago
It's not clear of gatekeepers, they're just moved to a different point in the process, and scattered about the industry. You don't hear about doctors being given a mystery patient and forty-five minutes to save their life using only a whiteboard; once you've got the qualifications, they're not subject to anything like the same level of challenge.

travisjungroth 6y ago

I'm not sure. I've been both a pilot and a software engineer and the narratives are very different. I've also helped people get into both fields (owned a flight school, mentored programmers). I don't think I've head anybody say "Anyone can be a pilot!". Becoming a pilot is inaccessible. There are medical qualifications. It's expensive. A degree helps a lot (or is required) for airline jobs. Self-limiting beliefs keep _some_ people from being pilots. So there are outreach events (Young Eagles being one) that introduce people to flying. The military recruits at events. But it's more this "maybe you could be a pilot. just consider it." vibe. Programming is accessible (as the article points out). I spent less than $200 in materials to get a good job as a software engineer. (Throw in $500 for a computer if you want). Self limiting-beliefs make up a much larger component (but not all!) of why people can't become professional software engineers. I think this leads to people overreaching during the outreach phase. If it's only a few hundred dollars, focus and time, then the only thing stopping you is yourself! Well, no. Let's just start at the left end of the curve and acknowledge there are adults who can't count to five. They're humans, they're people, they're part of "anybody", but they absolutely will never be programmers. And then it's just a spectrum from there. The reality (like most realities) is more complex than can what fit on a sticker. Some people think they can't program, but could. You don't have to be great at math, but it can help and they're similar mindsets. An expensive education isn't required, but helps with careers. Programming is hard. But maybe you can do something harder than you think.

odyssey7 6y ago

Our profession is misunderstood by the public, and some effort is required to let people know that this is in fact high-skill, demanding work. Recently, a non-technical executive berated me for not working faster. I wanted to tell him, "would you say that to your accountant, who just worked an 80-hour week to help you meet your obligations on time, continuing to receive new spreadsheets all the while?"

tyloop 6y ago
Actually, often you can tell him. It is way harder to get fired than many technical people think.
- lanstin 6y ago
  Key insight. In a field with such a deficit of excellence, you can’t be exploited without your own buy in. Except maybe with certain classes of visa troubles.

ehnto 6y ago

I have found welding to have a similar community mindset to programming, for some people it's a job, for some it's art, most people think it's too hard for them, getting into it is easy and mastering it is hard. Car mechanics too, run of the mill mechanics shop doing oil changes doesn't require that much to be competent at, but that's barely scratching the surface. Within the mechanic profession and you can go all the way from oil changer to mechanical engineer. Consider motorsport workshops, specialist restoration workshops, custom fabrication, aero design, engine building, machining, performance wiring, ECU tuning. It's a huge topic. I find that is the case with almost anything though. Very few things are all that shallow. I have to remind myself of that if I disregard something someone enjoys. Sports fans? Yeah some of it could be shallow, but sports nerds go hard, there is crazy depth to sports fandom. Same with TV shows, video games, telephone pole enthusiasts. So I guess my overall point is, the question "Is X job hard?" isn't really answerable, since we don't know exactly what part of the job the person is targeting from the question.

tyloop 6y ago

The people who are doing the work in programming are not assertive on average and are prone to be taken advantage of. This is not a criticism; in a way you need to isolate yourself from realities of human politics to be successful in the field. So in the last decade many socially dominant people who smelled the money have invaded open source. They have realized that you can make a living by posing as team leads and not doing much. The real workers have let them in, have given them power and are now facing the consequences (ha, finally we can use that term, too!). Other professions like law and medicine aren't remotely as naive. They are acutely aware of power struggles, protecting their professions and won't let this happen.

booleandilemma 6y ago
Completely agree. If I had a dime for every project owner, project manager, team lead, or <insert made-up job title> I’ve worked with who has absolutely no technical experience or knowledge I’d have over a dollar already. These people invariably majored in something like english, dance, or music studies and then wind up doing project management because, as you pointed out, they’re after the money and no one is stopping them.
englund 6y ago
Invaded open source? I can't think of any open source projects not run by programmers.

watwut 6y ago

I honestly think that there are many people who exaggerate how difficult programming is. And people really like to think that if you already dont know a lot, then you are naturally crappy and cant learn. The professions you mentioned require a lot of learning. The expectation is that you go to school knowing what high school taught you, then you learn basics and then you continue learning on your own. The expectation is that there is learning curve. I think I am good programmer. When I was younger and considering it as a profession, I was told that it is hard and that I should think twice seriously before comitting myself to it. That som of the guys that are already coding are very good and I will compete against them. There is gatekeeping related to claimed difficulty. There is also perception that either you know it or not, but that you should not expect learning curve. Also, passionate people of all kinds of professions trying do this exact thing. Whether art or tech or sport, adults go out of their way to signal to kids that "you can do it too, join us doing this thing".

neogodless 6y ago

I think the question might be "why might someone gatekeep at all?" As a software developer, I love working with developers that are competent, and especially if I'm learning a lot just by being on projects with them. I do not love working with developers who actively decrease the quality of the code base because they do not understand what quality is. Now, that can be relative, and subjective. I'm quite open to junior developers trying things, asking questions, requesting code reviews, etc. But some people get a senior title and a confidence about their work, and charge ahead generating extra work for those around them. So I'd rather such people were, perhaps, not in the field at all! In general, though, I would like to encourage lots of people to try programming. From my perspective, it's super empowering, interesting, deep and can be a great career choice. Try it, and if it interests you, and you find yourself driven to improve, learn new things, and seek mastery, we're really going to enjoy having you here in the field with us. There are aspects of programming that almost anyone considering the field could try and learn and see some success at. But it helps to understand that you may discover your own limits (whether by talent, motivation, or opportunity) sooner or later in the field, because there are aspects that are much less approachable. Do you want to spend countless hours preparing for algorithmic whiteboard interviews? Do you want to bury your head in code while stepping meticulously through a debugger on a squeegee hunt for an edge case? Do you want to optimize relentlessly when the scenario requires it? If software is eating the world, we'll need a lot of developers. And we'll want some that are happy to do grunt work while others forge into the most treacherous waters. But we don't want you to think that all software development is easy, because it's not.

waylandsmithers 6y ago
> I think the question might be "why might someone gatekeep at all?" We'd always go through the same thing with folks who were new to interviewing with a candidate who couldn't quite cut it. In the following discussion they'd be hesitant to say no and maybe go into how they seemed nice or whatever. Then we'd ask "Ok, would you want them starting on your project with you tomorrow?" Well, no...

jeffreyrogers 6y ago

> Is being a doctor hard? I have a friend who is a surgeon who says he hardly uses anything he learned in medical school and that he could teach a carpenter to do his job. (I think he is exaggerating a bit, but it's a funny anecdote).

908B64B197 6y ago
Surgery is very specialized knowledge. I'm sure he's using the fundamentals he learned in med school more than he thinks, but yeah everything in psychiatry, pediatrics and obstetrics most likely not.
SkyPuncher 6y ago
My wife is a physician, but not a surgeon. Most of medicine is relatively routine. A surgeon's skill isn't so much in the 99% of cases, but the 1% that have adverse outcomes. More importantly, their skill comes in identifying the possibility of adverse outcomes and preventing them from ever happening. Me and you could easily be taught to do a routine surgery, like an appendectomy. However, we wouldn't be able to identify if something requires more treatment or prevent a patient from dying if things don't go perfect.
- nullspace 6y ago
  Isn't it very similar for programmers? I don't get paid >100k for knowing how to create a button with boostrap and jQuery, but rather for the 1% of the time where I need to do something 1000x more complicated
  - SkyPuncher 6y ago
    Yes. It's the same for a lot of fields.

brundolf 6y ago

> programming at all professional levels must be easy for everyone, else you are a gatekeeper I've literally never heard anybody say this. Best I can tell it's a straw-man the author has stood up. Part of the problem is the ambiguity of the words "easy" and "hard", which would be a valid discussion to have, but the OP didn't really seem interested in that aspect, and chose instead to interpret things in the least-charitable way possible.

13415 6y ago

The examples you give in support of your thesis are strange. The idea that programming is hard is about as pretentious and wrong as saying that being a doctor, architect, lawyer, welder, car mechanic, or airline pilot is hard. Almost anyone with a basic level of intelligence and the willingness to put the efforts into it can learn any of the above professions, and programming is not different from them. It's not hard, although there are some hard areas you'd like to get done by a CS graduate or an engineer. There are professions that are hard or simply require some special and maybe rare talent, but like most other professions programming is not one of them.

ivanche 6y ago
What? You enumerated some of the hardest professions in the world and dismissed them as "not hard"! How many car mechanics you've seen turning into architect? How many developers you've seen becoming lwayers? How many lawyers became doctors? If one doesn't have drawing talent and sense of perspective, becoming an architect is almost impossible. No amount of work will fill for that. If one gets lost while moving in 3D, no way they'll become an airline pilot, ever. If one doesn't get mechanics and principles of how cars/engines works and has a talent for working with literally dozens of tools, they won't become a car mechanic ever.
- 13415 6y ago
  Some of the hardest professions? You've got to be kidding me... OP could have mentioned sculptors, theoretical physicists, athletes, or singers but chose to list completely normal professions. Just like programming. But the biggest mistake of this pretentious article and the whole thread is to talk of programming as if that was some uniform profession. It's ridiculous to assume that making an iPhone app requires the same skill set as programming a rocket guidance system. Maybe the self-proclaimed gatekeepers of "programming" like the author of this blog post should start by actually creating a profession called "programming" before they try to gate-keep it.

overgard 6y ago

I think it's literally because those other professions have strong gate-keeping institutions (licenses, etc), and programming doesn't. For better or worse I think that influences the perceived difficulty and prestige. (Note, I'm not suggesting that we need gate-keeping institutions, just that they do have an effect on how professions are seen). I think programmers are also sort of at fault for this. How many people try to increase their perceived status by talking about how some hard thing is actually super easy to them? While it might elevate their status among their peers, it reduces the status of the profession as a whole (granted in microscopic increments, but still, if a project manager hears "this is easy" all the time, they're going to start thinking these things are easy). Finally, I also think as a profession we don't do a great job of just presenting ourselves as professionals. How many coders (myself included) tend to look like slobs all the time? If you watch TV, all the other professions look sharp, and anyone tech related tends to look like they just climbed out of bed. Just saying, perception matters a ton.