5 ms·

> You see them at conferences, or with articles promoted, or with other types of media, sometimes playing the diversity card, This is unrelated to the general

> You see them at conferences, or with articles promoted, or with other types of media, sometimes playing the diversity card, This is unrelated to the general thesis and cleaves the audience for this post in half.

sidlls 6y ago
How is it unrelated to the general thesis?
slingnow 6y ago
I went to the comment section looking for the first person to take issue with that statement. I wasn't disappointed. Why is it unrelated to the general thesis?
- jfarmer 6y ago
  Let's not pretend like "the diversity card" is a neutral, just-the-facts-ma'am description of what's going on. I agree with the OP's premise: https://twitter.com/jfarmer/status/1361134242491633664 https://twitter.com/jfarmer/status/1361134242491633664 I also helped start https://www.missionbit.org/ https://www.missionbit.org/, donate + volunteer with orgs like Black Girls Code, Code2040, etc. Phrases like "the diversity card" serve no rational purposes other than to discourage folks who already see programming as "something for other people". And yes, I can imagine someone replying: "If someone is discouraged by _that_ then they're going to be in for a rude awakening once them start programming." Now imagine me wondering whether that person is more interested in winning a debate or learning about the actual circumstances and perspectives of their potential students. Programming _is_ hard. It's also one of the few careers that consistently give people power and autonomy over the trajectory of their lives. Either the OP wants that world or he doesn't. If he doesn't, fine, say and do whatever. If he does, then he should recognize that phrases like "the diversity card" have 100% downside. Personally, I'll chalk it up to the OP being Romanian and using words/phrases whose sense is hard to get without being in the US or Canada (maybe UK/AUS/NZ too). For example, he says: > I’m the gatekeeper now. Maybe he means it in the sense that most folks in the US tech world mean it, but it doesn't seem like it. The OP seems to care about beginners being more discouraged because they were led to believe programming would be easier than it was. But the words and phrases he uses signal that he wants to make the environment inhospitable to "casuals". It's the difference between semantics and pragmatics.
  - commandlinefan 6y ago
    Well, he may not have put it exactly right, but the term "gatekeeping" is often (maybe not always, but a lot of the time) applied in the context of diversity or the lack thereof: you're claiming that programming is hard and are therefore engaging in gatekeeping which contributes to the lack of diversity (or so the argument always goes). It's worth bringing up in this post because claiming that programming is easier than it is hurts everybody who attempts it, whether they're diverse or not.
    - jfarmer 6y ago
      I'm trying to give the author the benefit of the doubt. The tone of the piece has a definite "buzz off, newbie, unless you're ready to go HARD CORE" tone to it. He might not realize that because he's not a native English speaker and isn't swimming around in North American culture. Maybe that was his intention, maybe it wasn't. Maybe he thought he was just "telling it like it is". Maybe you disagree that the article has that tone. If so, I'd politely suggest that the way the tone presents to someone used to "programming culture" might be different than it presents to someone outside, someone unsure about their place in that culture. Let me put it this way. I spent a lot of my time and energy finding people of all ages and backgrounds who have decided that programming is for other people and convincing them it doesn't have to be. This article makes my job harder. Compare it to this: > Some people will tell you programming is easy, other people will tell you programming is hard. Most of the time that's a reflection of how they felt or how they think other people should feel, not how it will feel for you. > Forget easy or hard. Will it take a lot of effort to become really good? Yes. The question is whether that effort is worth it for you. The only way you'll find out is if you give it a shot. > With the right effort, you _will_ learn to program. It can be for you if you want it. Let's figure out together whether this is exciting for you. If it is and you put in the work, I'll be there to help you go farther than you thought possible. None of this "gatekeeper" or "diversity card" nonsense. Talk to the person as a person. Don't talk about your favorite abstract bugaboos as it relates to that person.
jerf 6y ago
There are absolutely people out there simply playing the diversity card to get attention. If you are pro-diversity, this shouldn't be something you want to deny exists, it should be something you want to prevent from happening, because it dilutes your interests. It has nothing to do with the merits of diversity, it has to do with the fact that anything valued by society will have the signal forged by hucksters. Literally anything.
- watwut 6y ago
  Diversity speakers are by far not the only ones who "oversell their own skills". Nor are they they worst oversellers I have seen. And by that I mean that overselling own skills is incredibly frequent in this field and basically requirement in a lot of sub-cultures. It is just so incredibly common to read two tutorials and then claim yourself expert. It is not like consultants trading in impressions were rare or great expert developer comming in just for us to find we know more or something like that was rare. But typically, they dont use beginner card nor diversity card, they are guys who do their best to conform to every stereotype of great programmer who play "I am expert" card.
  - beckingz 6y ago
    I had a friend who worked for a big consulting company and they told him to become an expert in a topic. So he googled for 6 weeks and became an "expert".
mekkkkkk 6y ago
Yeah it is a bit sus to mention that in passing. As if it's yet another way these vily newbies nestles their way into the inner sanctum. Someone "playing the diversity card" is a massively positive thing for the industry in the long run, and should be encouraged.

sidlls 6y ago

How is it unrelated to the general thesis?

slingnow 6y ago

I went to the comment section looking for the first person to take issue with that statement. I wasn't disappointed. Why is it unrelated to the general thesis?

jfarmer 6y ago
Let's not pretend like "the diversity card" is a neutral, just-the-facts-ma'am description of what's going on. I agree with the OP's premise: https://twitter.com/jfarmer/status/1361134242491633664 https://twitter.com/jfarmer/status/1361134242491633664 I also helped start https://www.missionbit.org/ https://www.missionbit.org/, donate + volunteer with orgs like Black Girls Code, Code2040, etc. Phrases like "the diversity card" serve no rational purposes other than to discourage folks who already see programming as "something for other people". And yes, I can imagine someone replying: "If someone is discouraged by _that_ then they're going to be in for a rude awakening once them start programming." Now imagine me wondering whether that person is more interested in winning a debate or learning about the actual circumstances and perspectives of their potential students. Programming _is_ hard. It's also one of the few careers that consistently give people power and autonomy over the trajectory of their lives. Either the OP wants that world or he doesn't. If he doesn't, fine, say and do whatever. If he does, then he should recognize that phrases like "the diversity card" have 100% downside. Personally, I'll chalk it up to the OP being Romanian and using words/phrases whose sense is hard to get without being in the US or Canada (maybe UK/AUS/NZ too). For example, he says: > I’m the gatekeeper now. Maybe he means it in the sense that most folks in the US tech world mean it, but it doesn't seem like it. The OP seems to care about beginners being more discouraged because they were led to believe programming would be easier than it was. But the words and phrases he uses signal that he wants to make the environment inhospitable to "casuals". It's the difference between semantics and pragmatics.
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  Well, he may not have put it exactly right, but the term "gatekeeping" is often (maybe not always, but a lot of the time) applied in the context of diversity or the lack thereof: you're claiming that programming is hard and are therefore engaging in gatekeeping which contributes to the lack of diversity (or so the argument always goes). It's worth bringing up in this post because claiming that programming is easier than it is hurts everybody who attempts it, whether they're diverse or not.
  - jfarmer 6y ago
    I'm trying to give the author the benefit of the doubt. The tone of the piece has a definite "buzz off, newbie, unless you're ready to go HARD CORE" tone to it. He might not realize that because he's not a native English speaker and isn't swimming around in North American culture. Maybe that was his intention, maybe it wasn't. Maybe he thought he was just "telling it like it is". Maybe you disagree that the article has that tone. If so, I'd politely suggest that the way the tone presents to someone used to "programming culture" might be different than it presents to someone outside, someone unsure about their place in that culture. Let me put it this way. I spent a lot of my time and energy finding people of all ages and backgrounds who have decided that programming is for other people and convincing them it doesn't have to be. This article makes my job harder. Compare it to this: > Some people will tell you programming is easy, other people will tell you programming is hard. Most of the time that's a reflection of how they felt or how they think other people should feel, not how it will feel for you. > Forget easy or hard. Will it take a lot of effort to become really good? Yes. The question is whether that effort is worth it for you. The only way you'll find out is if you give it a shot. > With the right effort, you _will_ learn to program. It can be for you if you want it. Let's figure out together whether this is exciting for you. If it is and you put in the work, I'll be there to help you go farther than you thought possible. None of this "gatekeeper" or "diversity card" nonsense. Talk to the person as a person. Don't talk about your favorite abstract bugaboos as it relates to that person.

jerf 6y ago

There are absolutely people out there simply playing the diversity card to get attention. If you are pro-diversity, this shouldn't be something you want to deny exists, it should be something you want to prevent from happening, because it dilutes your interests. It has nothing to do with the merits of diversity, it has to do with the fact that anything valued by society will have the signal forged by hucksters. Literally anything.

watwut 6y ago
Diversity speakers are by far not the only ones who "oversell their own skills". Nor are they they worst oversellers I have seen. And by that I mean that overselling own skills is incredibly frequent in this field and basically requirement in a lot of sub-cultures. It is just so incredibly common to read two tutorials and then claim yourself expert. It is not like consultants trading in impressions were rare or great expert developer comming in just for us to find we know more or something like that was rare. But typically, they dont use beginner card nor diversity card, they are guys who do their best to conform to every stereotype of great programmer who play "I am expert" card.
- beckingz 6y ago
  I had a friend who worked for a big consulting company and they told him to become an expert in a topic. So he googled for 6 weeks and became an "expert".

mekkkkkk 6y ago

Yeah it is a bit sus to mention that in passing. As if it's yet another way these vily newbies nestles their way into the inner sanctum. Someone "playing the diversity card" is a massively positive thing for the industry in the long run, and should be encouraged.