4 ms·

> so they're already contributing an order of magnitude or more than I am Are they _really_ doing that? I don't like how hoarding assets is seen as 1000x more

> so they're already contributing an order of magnitude or more than I am Are they _really_ doing that? I don't like how hoarding assets is seen as 1000x more contributing than someone working 8 hours a day.

LanceH 6y ago
You don't think the guy that buys the factory that a thousand people work in contributed more? He should get $10/hour for laying out a couple billion?
- oblio 6y ago
  If all I have is $10, spending $5 on something risky and losing it is a tragedy. When I have $1bn and I spend $5 million x 100 risky investments, then losing $500 million means that I, my children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren will still be richer than the top 10% in even the most developed country. At some point the whole risk-reward shtick breaks down.
  - gh-throw 6y ago
    This is why the pat answer of "capital is rewarded for taking risk, that justifies their pay" doesn't ring true to me. Your downside is... still being rich and never, ever having to work if you don't want to? Hot damn, give me some of that risk!
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  What have they done except have money in your example? Why should they get anything?
  - andrepd 6y ago
    Classic example of justifying X with X (justifying capitalism inside the framework of capitalism).
- matsemann 6y ago
  How did he amass that billion in the first place? By contributing 1000x, or just because the capitalistic society rewarded him more for his efforts than some other workers earlier in his career?
  - MagnumOpus 6y ago
    More likely than not he/she inherited it. It's true for the vast majority of multimillionaires, from royals and aristocrats (obviously) to the Waltons/Rockefellers/Rothschilds/Abby Johnsons of this world, to the Chinese Party Princeling, to the 2nd generation of Silicon Valley aristocracy like Laurene Jobs & co.
leetcrew 6y ago
why is hoarding an appropriate word to describe what extremely rich people are doing with their wealth? is jeff bezos hiding a huge company in his basement?
- danaris 6y ago
  Because the only way to have that much in the first place is to decide "I will be keeping this, rather than using some significant portion of it to make the world a better place." Like, for instance, by paying all Amazon workers enough, hiring enough that you don't have to schedule them so strictly that they don't have time to pee, not deliberately copying and undercutting independent products sold on Amazon...
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    I see what you're saying in a "squint hard enough" sort of way, but I still don't think "hoarding" is a good way of describing it. "hoarding" is holding onto some useful thing, but without using it yourself or allowing others to do so. if I converted all my savings to cash and hid it under my mattress or owned a house that I neither lived in nor rented out, that would be hoarding. I don't think this accurately describes owning a huge amount of company stock. I'm sure jeff bezos tries to keep his assets in use as much as possible. the issue is not that he is "hoarding" them, but rather that he is not choosing to use them in the way that you or I would prefer. mere semantics perhaps, but I suspect a lot of people read these sorts of sentences uncritically and come away with the impression that billionaires are just sitting on massive piles of idle cash.
OminousWeapons 6y ago
> Are they _really_ doing that? Yes, most are objectively paying far more taxes in terms of dollars than the average person. That is what the OP means. > I don't like how hoarding assets is seen as 1000x more contributing than someone working 8 hours a day. You are falsely assuming that all of these people "hoarding assets" aren't themselves working at least 8 hours a day. Additionally, if we are being real, contributing large amounts of capital to a project (i.e. investing) probably IS worth a lot more in terms of value added than 8 hours of the average person's labor.
- matsemann 6y ago
  You're missing the point. Yes, most people work 8 hours a day. Why is someone's effort worth billions more than others? And contributing capital is worth much, yes, but that's a chicken and egg problem: how did they amass that capital in the first place, if their 8 hours work a day isn't worth billions more than other's 8 hours of work?
  - OminousWeapons 6y ago
    > Why is someone's effort worth billions more than others? Because the output of their labor (which is largely a mix of strategic decision making, operations, and planning) adds billions of dollars worth of value in a manner that is not easily reproduced. Imagine we put thousands of the world's best devs / admins / whatever under the command of the average HN reader with a budget to match. How many of them would be able to create a company that adds anything close to the value that Amazon generates for its owners and users? Probably almost none; and that is comparing the output of Bezos to high output, skilled, educated labor that itself commands a high price. Lets now imaging putting those devs and money under the command of someone who didn't finish high school and works a minimum wage job. Do you see them creating an Amazon? There is a low supply of people who can innovate and lead well, and a high demand for high quality leadership and vision, so people are compensated accordingly.
    - matsemann 6y ago
      Not buying it. If it weren't Bezos, it would be someone or something else. And I don't think Bezos' effort is worth his net worth. His output would be nill without the thousands of people actually doing the stuff.

LanceH 6y ago

You don't think the guy that buys the factory that a thousand people work in contributed more? He should get $10/hour for laying out a couple billion?

oblio 6y ago
If all I have is $10, spending $5 on something risky and losing it is a tragedy. When I have $1bn and I spend $5 million x 100 risky investments, then losing $500 million means that I, my children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren will still be richer than the top 10% in even the most developed country. At some point the whole risk-reward shtick breaks down.
- gh-throw 6y ago
  This is why the pat answer of "capital is rewarded for taking risk, that justifies their pay" doesn't ring true to me. Your downside is... still being rich and never, ever having to work if you don't want to? Hot damn, give me some of that risk!
boomboomsubban 6y ago
What have they done except have money in your example? Why should they get anything?
- andrepd 6y ago
  Classic example of justifying X with X (justifying capitalism inside the framework of capitalism).
matsemann 6y ago
How did he amass that billion in the first place? By contributing 1000x, or just because the capitalistic society rewarded him more for his efforts than some other workers earlier in his career?
- MagnumOpus 6y ago
  More likely than not he/she inherited it. It's true for the vast majority of multimillionaires, from royals and aristocrats (obviously) to the Waltons/Rockefellers/Rothschilds/Abby Johnsons of this world, to the Chinese Party Princeling, to the 2nd generation of Silicon Valley aristocracy like Laurene Jobs & co.

leetcrew 6y ago

why is hoarding an appropriate word to describe what extremely rich people are doing with their wealth? is jeff bezos hiding a huge company in his basement?

danaris 6y ago
Because the only way to have that much in the first place is to decide "I will be keeping this, rather than using some significant portion of it to make the world a better place." Like, for instance, by paying all Amazon workers enough, hiring enough that you don't have to schedule them so strictly that they don't have time to pee, not deliberately copying and undercutting independent products sold on Amazon...
- leetcrew 6y ago
  I see what you're saying in a "squint hard enough" sort of way, but I still don't think "hoarding" is a good way of describing it. "hoarding" is holding onto some useful thing, but without using it yourself or allowing others to do so. if I converted all my savings to cash and hid it under my mattress or owned a house that I neither lived in nor rented out, that would be hoarding. I don't think this accurately describes owning a huge amount of company stock. I'm sure jeff bezos tries to keep his assets in use as much as possible. the issue is not that he is "hoarding" them, but rather that he is not choosing to use them in the way that you or I would prefer. mere semantics perhaps, but I suspect a lot of people read these sorts of sentences uncritically and come away with the impression that billionaires are just sitting on massive piles of idle cash.

OminousWeapons 6y ago

> Are they _really_ doing that? Yes, most are objectively paying far more taxes in terms of dollars than the average person. That is what the OP means. > I don't like how hoarding assets is seen as 1000x more contributing than someone working 8 hours a day. You are falsely assuming that all of these people "hoarding assets" aren't themselves working at least 8 hours a day. Additionally, if we are being real, contributing large amounts of capital to a project (i.e. investing) probably IS worth a lot more in terms of value added than 8 hours of the average person's labor.

matsemann 6y ago
You're missing the point. Yes, most people work 8 hours a day. Why is someone's effort worth billions more than others? And contributing capital is worth much, yes, but that's a chicken and egg problem: how did they amass that capital in the first place, if their 8 hours work a day isn't worth billions more than other's 8 hours of work?
- OminousWeapons 6y ago
  > Why is someone's effort worth billions more than others? Because the output of their labor (which is largely a mix of strategic decision making, operations, and planning) adds billions of dollars worth of value in a manner that is not easily reproduced. Imagine we put thousands of the world's best devs / admins / whatever under the command of the average HN reader with a budget to match. How many of them would be able to create a company that adds anything close to the value that Amazon generates for its owners and users? Probably almost none; and that is comparing the output of Bezos to high output, skilled, educated labor that itself commands a high price. Lets now imaging putting those devs and money under the command of someone who didn't finish high school and works a minimum wage job. Do you see them creating an Amazon? There is a low supply of people who can innovate and lead well, and a high demand for high quality leadership and vision, so people are compensated accordingly.
  - matsemann 6y ago
    Not buying it. If it weren't Bezos, it would be someone or something else. And I don't think Bezos' effort is worth his net worth. His output would be nill without the thousands of people actually doing the stuff.