4 ms·

It is really cool we're getting (slightly) closer to the understanding how memories work. It is still basic research, but if I understand the significance of t

It is really cool we're getting (slightly) closer to the understanding how memories work. It is still basic research, but if I understand the significance of this correctly having a confirmation there are specific physical changes neurons undergo when forming some kinds of memories allows at least theoretically extraction of those memories from pieces of inactive tissue. As a layman in the subject I've been always very much interested how much of our personality and consciousness is "encoded" in the electro-chemical activity (software) vs how things are connected and formed together(hardware). The more of "us" is in the hardware the more likely someone in future will come up with a way to "scan" features of dead tissue to recover (in a simulation perhaps) the person lost to death. We're currently probably as far from that as a medieval battlefield "surgeon" from modern heart transplant, but at least we're moving in the right direction.

cblconfederate 6y ago
If our current connectionist understanding of the brain is correct, then we should be able to recover a personality from a very detailed CT scan, and maybe in the future to revive it. (Personally, i d prefer that in a solar-powered ball that is shot out of the solar system in high velocity)
hans1729 6y ago
I'd argue that the line between software and hardware isn't as clear in neuro as someone with an IT background would like to think, specifically because the electro-chemical activities going on are both, hard and soft, at the same time. This isn't some abstract process running on a biological computer, the biological computer is the sum of the processes that constitute itself. (That's the fascinating thing about bio) To form a memory is something completely different than to store data in a db, as it involves lots and lots of encoding factors. If anything is actually stored, it's not the memory itself, but the perception at time T in relation to the expectations for T, i.e. a delta (think of the times when you listen to a song from the old days and it hurts, because the emotional connotation from back then doesn't match the current situation). Retrieving this delta would be meaningless unless you have the matching interpreter, the entire status machine.
- erikerikson 6y ago
  I have a background in both. Both are implemented in physical mediums. The gating and current flow are similarly physical as are magnetic field changes on disk mediums. There is a greater diversity in the brain which uses field effects ala hormones, ion movement, transmitter diffusion, and direct electrical connection. The physical/informational duality is present in both so I would suggest that the building out of the hardware using the ambient materials (i.e. trophic factor) is the more specific difference you're looking for rather than the duality. You transition to a difference in encoding which is a significant but separate consideration. I think the thrust of your statement agrees with the science but quickly nice into speculation and undue specificity that to me reads as though you are declaring fact. Language and good communication are hard.
  - d110af5ccf 6y ago
    > The physical/informational duality is present in both A very important distinction is that a computer has clean separation between physical data representation (magnetic bits) and physical device implementation (transistors & etc). As an analogy to a biological system I'd suggest an FPGA running a self modifying program that's also reconfiguring the FPGA on the fly. No sane engineer would design such a system (I hope).
    - erikerikson 6y ago
      Self modifying programs have totally been a thing. :D They were hard to reason about so fell by the wayside but still... For ion flow through dendrites and axons, the separation of information transmission from the protein assemblies of neurons is similarly separated. For neurotransmitters the particles are literally packed into bundles and separated from the ionic transmission that causes their release and cell boundaries at the synapse until re-up take. For electric transmission, the electricity is definitely separate from the axon and junction. I think the distinction is a little more in how a single computer's hardware is constrained to a (relatively) small set of finite states outside of outside modification. The brain can expand and contract the set of states that it's physical parts can enter on top of being, for better and worse, less discrete. If our computers could grow their silicon wafers and lay new circuits then we would have something similar.

cblconfederate 6y ago

If our current connectionist understanding of the brain is correct, then we should be able to recover a personality from a very detailed CT scan, and maybe in the future to revive it. (Personally, i d prefer that in a solar-powered ball that is shot out of the solar system in high velocity)

hans1729 6y ago

I'd argue that the line between software and hardware isn't as clear in neuro as someone with an IT background would like to think, specifically because the electro-chemical activities going on are both, hard and soft, at the same time. This isn't some abstract process running on a biological computer, the biological computer is the sum of the processes that constitute itself. (That's the fascinating thing about bio) To form a memory is something completely different than to store data in a db, as it involves lots and lots of encoding factors. If anything is actually stored, it's not the memory itself, but the perception at time T in relation to the expectations for T, i.e. a delta (think of the times when you listen to a song from the old days and it hurts, because the emotional connotation from back then doesn't match the current situation). Retrieving this delta would be meaningless unless you have the matching interpreter, the entire status machine.

erikerikson 6y ago
I have a background in both. Both are implemented in physical mediums. The gating and current flow are similarly physical as are magnetic field changes on disk mediums. There is a greater diversity in the brain which uses field effects ala hormones, ion movement, transmitter diffusion, and direct electrical connection. The physical/informational duality is present in both so I would suggest that the building out of the hardware using the ambient materials (i.e. trophic factor) is the more specific difference you're looking for rather than the duality. You transition to a difference in encoding which is a significant but separate consideration. I think the thrust of your statement agrees with the science but quickly nice into speculation and undue specificity that to me reads as though you are declaring fact. Language and good communication are hard.
- d110af5ccf 6y ago
  > The physical/informational duality is present in both A very important distinction is that a computer has clean separation between physical data representation (magnetic bits) and physical device implementation (transistors & etc). As an analogy to a biological system I'd suggest an FPGA running a self modifying program that's also reconfiguring the FPGA on the fly. No sane engineer would design such a system (I hope).
  - erikerikson 6y ago
    Self modifying programs have totally been a thing. :D They were hard to reason about so fell by the wayside but still... For ion flow through dendrites and axons, the separation of information transmission from the protein assemblies of neurons is similarly separated. For neurotransmitters the particles are literally packed into bundles and separated from the ionic transmission that causes their release and cell boundaries at the synapse until re-up take. For electric transmission, the electricity is definitely separate from the axon and junction. I think the distinction is a little more in how a single computer's hardware is constrained to a (relatively) small set of finite states outside of outside modification. The brain can expand and contract the set of states that it's physical parts can enter on top of being, for better and worse, less discrete. If our computers could grow their silicon wafers and lay new circuits then we would have something similar.