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Is it really surprising that he would have all of the most popular messaging apps? Facebook’s playbook of copying popular features from apps gaining traction is

Is it really surprising that he would have all of the most popular messaging apps? Facebook’s playbook of copying popular features from apps gaining traction is by no means a secret. I’m not totally convinced by the narrative that Mark doesn’t trust his own tools so he prefers Signal.

deadmutex 6y ago
Yeah, it is likely that he was just checking up on the competition. I wouldn't be surprised if turned the narrative on this by saying something like the following: "I was curious to check it out.. it wasn't very good, so I reverted back to Messenger/Whatsapp." IIRC, he made similar comments when he was spotted using G+. Disclaimer: My views are my own (and not necessarily shared by my employers).
- uoaei 6y ago
  It doesn't seem like you are aware that WhatsApp hired Moxie Marlinspike, the creator of the Signal encryption protocol, to re-implement it for WhatsApp. AFAIK it is still used in WhatsApp today. I will take this moment also to mention that "re-implement" isn't exactly right in that they modified the protocol slightly to allow for someone in control of the administration server to change a user's private key without their knowing, so that the admin can decrypt the E2E communications using the known key.
  - 7a1c9427 6y ago
    > I will take this moment also to mention that "re-implement" isn't exactly right in that they modified the protocol slightly to allow for someone in control of the administration server to change a user's private key without their knowing, so that the admin can decrypt the E2E communications using the known key. Do you have a source for that claim?
    - secfirstmd 6y ago
      Yeh that's a big claim. Love to know source
      - EGreg 6y ago
        I would also like to mention that information is encrypted and cannot be proven.
    - lxgr 6y ago
      GP is probably referring to this: https://boelter.blog/2016/04/whats-app-retransmission-vulnerability/ https://boelter.blog/2016/04/whats-app-retransmission-vulner...
      - 7a1c9427 6y ago
        I think that is a very charitable assumption about the GP claim. The linked article describes a very specific implementation vulnerability around handling of offline messages that would appear to be routed in user experience being ranked higher than operational security by WhatsApp (understandably). In this case it also does notify the user once they are online, and the original phone is logged out alerting the compromised user. The GP claim is far broader that all E2E communication can be compromised without user awareness permitting ongoing communication between two unaware parties to be monitored.
        uoaei 6y ago
        > I think that is a very charitable assumption about the GP claim. The linked article describes a very specific implementation vulnerability around handling of offline messages that would appear to be routed in user experience being ranked higher than operational security by WhatsApp (understandably). Both points (security vulnerability and user experience prioritization) can be true simultaneously. This is the root of all plausible deniability when it comes to installing vulnerabilities in technologies. I don't see why we should care at all about WhatsApp's intentions with the change when the effects are so pernicious. Facebook et al. definitely do not deserve the benefit of our doubt anymore.
  - anticensor 6y ago
    > they modified the protocol slightly to allow for someone in control of the administration server to change a user's private key without their knowing, so that the admin can decrypt the E2E communications using the known key. You mean, no-longer-E2EE.
- Grustaf 6y ago
  > Disclaimer: My views are my own (and not necessarily shared by my employers). Who is your employer? It's not mentioned in your profile...
  - rataata_jr 6y ago
    Maybe its mentioned in one of his earlier comments on this platform.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      It is indeed.
      - Grustaf 6y ago
        To be fair, how often do anonymous forum posts actually reflect the opinions of the employer?
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  What are the odds that Zuckerberg knows a lot of people in the tech business and some of them are Signal users?
goatinaboat 6y ago
I’m not totally convinced by the narrative that Mark doesn’t trust his own tools so he prefers Signal. He has tape over the camera of his own computer in Facebook HQ
- nine_k 6y ago
  Everybody should have a shutter over the camera, just to protect from blunders and misclicks. No matter how you trust your software, some malware may want to activate it, especially at a high-value target like Zuckerberg (or Bezos, or Nadella, etc). Alas, microphones are not as easy to deactivate.
  - icybox 6y ago
    Actually, they are. Just grab headphones with microphone and use scissors and keep the jack in.
    - jhugo 6y ago
      Don't know about laptops but on recent desktop motherboards the jack detection and output/input switching is done in software. Probably the case on many laptops too. So this approach shouldn't be considered a "hardware switch" as it's still possible to capture audio from another mic even when a headset is plugged in.
      - alias_neo 6y ago
        On both of my XPSs I can switch to internal or external mic regardless of a headset behind plugged in, so the snarky suggestion to use a cut-off headphone jack is misguided and won't work on many modern laptops.
    - carmen_sandiego 6y ago
      Bold to assume I have a mic jack in 2021.
  - dheera 6y ago
tamrix 6y ago
He could pay a team of 100 developers to do that. If he really wanted to that, he would have several phones with separate numbers for exploring other messaging apps as not to cross business and personal matters.
- nine_k 6y ago
  (1) You can't always trust the opinions of 100 developers, even if you can somehow consolidate them. Certain things are best seen firsthand, even if you have opinions of top 20 people you trust. (2) Lugging multiple phones is clumsy enough that most people won't consider it, most CEOs, even more so. Two is somehow tolerable. And you need competitors' apps always available, to try things while you have an idea, and to easily compare.
BiteCode_dev 6y ago
Besides, he may just have friends that are not on whatsapp or messenger. What is he gonna do, ghost them?
- black_puppydog 6y ago
  As in, having them followed by "ghosts" to report back to him what they're doing, like he's doing with the rest of us? :)
74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago
Many people who are incompetent about technology have this weird paradoxical attitude towards apps where they will install random apps without even thinking twice and have loads of apps on their phone which are basically just mobile web sites but when it comes to messengers it's the opposite and they feel overwhelmed by having more than WA,FB and IG. On the other side of the spectrum are people who won't just install some random app without due dilligence, make a pass on appified websites and don't care about how many messengers they have on the phone because it doesn't really matter anyway due to the reactive usage pattern. I suppose MZ is like that.
karmasimida 6y ago
That is my first thought too. He might be just trying to experience Signal here and there, and see how to take something from it to facebook. I don't think he is using this seriously.

deadmutex 6y ago

Yeah, it is likely that he was just checking up on the competition. I wouldn't be surprised if turned the narrative on this by saying something like the following: "I was curious to check it out.. it wasn't very good, so I reverted back to Messenger/Whatsapp." IIRC, he made similar comments when he was spotted using G+. Disclaimer: My views are my own (and not necessarily shared by my employers).

uoaei 6y ago
It doesn't seem like you are aware that WhatsApp hired Moxie Marlinspike, the creator of the Signal encryption protocol, to re-implement it for WhatsApp. AFAIK it is still used in WhatsApp today. I will take this moment also to mention that "re-implement" isn't exactly right in that they modified the protocol slightly to allow for someone in control of the administration server to change a user's private key without their knowing, so that the admin can decrypt the E2E communications using the known key.
- 7a1c9427 6y ago
  > I will take this moment also to mention that "re-implement" isn't exactly right in that they modified the protocol slightly to allow for someone in control of the administration server to change a user's private key without their knowing, so that the admin can decrypt the E2E communications using the known key. Do you have a source for that claim?
  - secfirstmd 6y ago
    Yeh that's a big claim. Love to know source
    - EGreg 6y ago
      I would also like to mention that information is encrypted and cannot be proven.
  - lxgr 6y ago
    GP is probably referring to this: https://boelter.blog/2016/04/whats-app-retransmission-vulnerability/ https://boelter.blog/2016/04/whats-app-retransmission-vulner...
    - 7a1c9427 6y ago
      I think that is a very charitable assumption about the GP claim. The linked article describes a very specific implementation vulnerability around handling of offline messages that would appear to be routed in user experience being ranked higher than operational security by WhatsApp (understandably). In this case it also does notify the user once they are online, and the original phone is logged out alerting the compromised user. The GP claim is far broader that all E2E communication can be compromised without user awareness permitting ongoing communication between two unaware parties to be monitored.
      - uoaei 6y ago
        > I think that is a very charitable assumption about the GP claim. The linked article describes a very specific implementation vulnerability around handling of offline messages that would appear to be routed in user experience being ranked higher than operational security by WhatsApp (understandably). Both points (security vulnerability and user experience prioritization) can be true simultaneously. This is the root of all plausible deniability when it comes to installing vulnerabilities in technologies. I don't see why we should care at all about WhatsApp's intentions with the change when the effects are so pernicious. Facebook et al. definitely do not deserve the benefit of our doubt anymore.
- anticensor 6y ago
  > they modified the protocol slightly to allow for someone in control of the administration server to change a user's private key without their knowing, so that the admin can decrypt the E2E communications using the known key. You mean, no-longer-E2EE.
Grustaf 6y ago
> Disclaimer: My views are my own (and not necessarily shared by my employers). Who is your employer? It's not mentioned in your profile...
- rataata_jr 6y ago
  Maybe its mentioned in one of his earlier comments on this platform.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    It is indeed.
    - Grustaf 6y ago
      To be fair, how often do anonymous forum posts actually reflect the opinions of the employer?
908B64B197 6y ago
What are the odds that Zuckerberg knows a lot of people in the tech business and some of them are Signal users?

goatinaboat 6y ago

I’m not totally convinced by the narrative that Mark doesn’t trust his own tools so he prefers Signal. He has tape over the camera of his own computer in Facebook HQ

nine_k 6y ago
Everybody should have a shutter over the camera, just to protect from blunders and misclicks. No matter how you trust your software, some malware may want to activate it, especially at a high-value target like Zuckerberg (or Bezos, or Nadella, etc). Alas, microphones are not as easy to deactivate.
- icybox 6y ago
  Actually, they are. Just grab headphones with microphone and use scissors and keep the jack in.
  - jhugo 6y ago
    Don't know about laptops but on recent desktop motherboards the jack detection and output/input switching is done in software. Probably the case on many laptops too. So this approach shouldn't be considered a "hardware switch" as it's still possible to capture audio from another mic even when a headset is plugged in.
    - alias_neo 6y ago
      On both of my XPSs I can switch to internal or external mic regardless of a headset behind plugged in, so the snarky suggestion to use a cut-off headphone jack is misguided and won't work on many modern laptops.
  - carmen_sandiego 6y ago
    Bold to assume I have a mic jack in 2021.
- dheera 6y ago

tamrix 6y ago

He could pay a team of 100 developers to do that. If he really wanted to that, he would have several phones with separate numbers for exploring other messaging apps as not to cross business and personal matters.

nine_k 6y ago
(1) You can't always trust the opinions of 100 developers, even if you can somehow consolidate them. Certain things are best seen firsthand, even if you have opinions of top 20 people you trust. (2) Lugging multiple phones is clumsy enough that most people won't consider it, most CEOs, even more so. Two is somehow tolerable. And you need competitors' apps always available, to try things while you have an idea, and to easily compare.

BiteCode_dev 6y ago

Besides, he may just have friends that are not on whatsapp or messenger. What is he gonna do, ghost them?

black_puppydog 6y ago
As in, having them followed by "ghosts" to report back to him what they're doing, like he's doing with the rest of us? :)

74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago

Many people who are incompetent about technology have this weird paradoxical attitude towards apps where they will install random apps without even thinking twice and have loads of apps on their phone which are basically just mobile web sites but when it comes to messengers it's the opposite and they feel overwhelmed by having more than WA,FB and IG. On the other side of the spectrum are people who won't just install some random app without due dilligence, make a pass on appified websites and don't care about how many messengers they have on the phone because it doesn't really matter anyway due to the reactive usage pattern. I suppose MZ is like that.

karmasimida 6y ago

That is my first thought too. He might be just trying to experience Signal here and there, and see how to take something from it to facebook. I don't think he is using this seriously.