6 ms·

There is a conflict here: on one hand we want diversity, accept people with their differences, their handicap or education. On the other hand we want them to be

There is a conflict here: on one hand we want diversity, accept people with their differences, their handicap or education. On the other hand we want them to behave the same way we do, otherwise we reject them. So your company should have people with handicap, but that have no effect on others. And diverse genders, but you should consider them all the same, even if we know we have diverse bodies, needs and behaviors. And diverse cultural and religious background, but it should be ignored like if we all agreed on how life works. Living together do mean we have to live by common rules and try to fit, but you can't have your cake and both way: if you increase diversity, you will increase friction. If you ask for diversity and you want them to be just like you, think just like you, or act just like you, it's not going to work.

warkdarrior 6y ago
> we want them to behave the same way we do That is a false statement. We want people to behave respectfully of others, not the same way we do.
- luckylion 6y ago
  I've rarely seen SJWs behave respectfully to others who weren't like them or were of some group they considered protected. It doesn't seem to be about respectfulness. It looks to be about a superficial diversity: of ethnicity, sex, gender, (dis-)ability etc, but not of thought.
  - stonogo 6y ago
    Seems more likely you just don't label the respectful people "SJWs" or some other pejorative.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      Possibly, but I don't see a lot of acceptance for actual diversity in diversity circles. There's a core they share (political stance, worldview) that's essential for being allowed. Diversity is allowed beyond that, but that's really no different than anywhere else. Trump fans of lots of different backgrounds get along great, because they share what they consider important. The diversity movement is primarily concerned with allowing diversity outside of the core issues, while strictly forbidding it within, and purging those who don't comply, regardless of their gender, sex, ethnicity etc.
      - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
        > Trump fans of lots of different backgrounds get along great, because they share what they consider important. I haven't thought about this earlier, but there is some truth to it. When I'm with my rightish colleagues, I can basically say anything I like, the worst I risk is being called a stupid commie. Of course they know we have very different opinions, but there is no problem - basically I feel free to discuss anything. With my leftish friends, I really need to be much more careful. Frankly, I'm not up to date about all the current developments especially in the trans sphere, and I'm not sure if the thing that appears in my mind is the right one to say. And when I say something wrong, they are really outraged. They take it personally. So I find myself a bit more quiet when I' with them, and I keep my opinions about important issues to myself.
        kodah 6y ago
        > With my leftish friends, I really need to be much more careful. Frankly, I'm not up to date about all the current developments especially in the trans sphere, and I'm not sure if the thing that appears in my mind is the right one to say. And when I say something wrong, they are really outraged. They take it personally. So I find myself a bit more quiet when I' with them, and I keep my opinions about important issues to myself. This is not a friend, imo. There are plenty of leftists that aren't performative and don't practice consistent outrage. I've known some of these people too and they're exhausting. Do yourself a favor and get new leftist friends.
- BiteCode_dev 6y ago
  That's the theory. In practice, respect is a spectrum that includes people sensitivity, education, social context, legality, and is not an absolute. Drawing a picture of God may be worship for some, and disrespectful for others. For more daily simple things, it's the same. If you want an autistic person to behave like you, with empathy, you are not asking for respect. The person may not be disrespecting you. I had an asperger in my class last year, always interrupting me during my explanations. You can enrage that it was disrespect. Or you can understand he just didn't see he was disturbing the flow of the course. Many on twitter would have accused him on mansplaining. I just asked him directly to keep interruptions limited to the time break. He complied, happy to have a clear instruction on how to deal with the situation.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - 3grdlurker 6y ago
    I don’t know how you understand accountability but people who have clinically-diagnosed mental conditions that keep them from having full agencies over their actions are out of the question. The online political discourse you are referring to rests on the assumption that people with bigoted views and behaviors have no such diagnoses and are willfully embracing and practicing bigotry on their own. You don’t even need to define absolutes, for god’s sakes. The point is that people shouldn’t bring their politics to the office, and they do that by not discriminating on anyone on the basis of anything, which necessitates respecting and valuing everyone equally. The problem is that, simply, people don’t do that and actively refuse to do that, because they feel that their inherently divisive views shouldn’t sow divisiveness in the office. It makes no sense.
    - BiteCode_dev 6y ago
      So if a vegan is offended when you eat a meat sandwich at the office, how do you know who is respecting who? Society is currently not vegan in majority, so you could say they should adapt. Also you could adapt the point of view they are trying to do the least of harm, and are suffering from the harm you do. Then, you should adapt. Diversity is bound to cause friction. That's just how it is. There is no simple good answer to that. It's always case by case. What's right today it not what's right tomorrow.
- jjav 6y ago
  But who defines respectfully? You can find traits which are signs of respect in one culture and yet offensive in others. The only way to reconcile that is to not attempt to impose your definition of respect onto others. Not always super easy to do, of course.
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
Do we really need diversity though? I would be perfectly fine if a development of a project would be done by strangers behind incognito aliases. I don't care if the contributed code comes from Black woman or Caucasian man or some cat who had learned to code. I believe that it is absolutely irrelevant topic that is forced on the industry by whatever reasons. If is not like the barrier to entry is too high: anyone who can afford a $500 PC and internet can have access to all the learning materials in the world.
- brnt 6y ago
  Two things: 1. The meaning of $500 varies wildly across earth. It's not much work to figure that out. 2. It depends on the kind of project. If you want a community project, a project that lives and breathes, you don't just need to put out code, but also inspire use and new contributors. For that, a pleasant atmosphere helps, and have existing contributors seem approachable. For that, you need to project not being a tiny club of likeminded, or worse, outright similar, people. This tends to discouraged interest and participation. It also tends towards a particular internal culture having way too much overlap with a particular culture is my experience. Teams consisting of 30 year old male computer scientists will have a particular kind of banter/small talk utterly incompatible with many other backgrounds. Not having too much of one kind of team member protects you from this, making on boarding easier.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    > The meaning of $500 varies wildly across earth. Oh, come on! This argument appears so often, but it is absolutely irrelevant: a person without a computer is unlikely to participate in the Free Software movement, with rms at the helm or without. And living and breathing projects: all projects would be more healthy if they were all strict to business. No activism of any kind, but the one aimed at improving the product. You don't need to fight for gender equality if you don't care about the sex of the contributor! If sex means zero to you, then both sexes are truly equal, because 0 equals 0.
    - brnt 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
3grdlurker 6y ago
> And diverse genders, but you should consider them all the same, even if we know we have diverse bodies, needs and behaviors. The point of having the knowledge that our bodies and needs are different as dictated by sex (not gender, if you’re talking about bodies) is to respect and value each other equally despite the things that we cannot change about our biologies. If what you just said is how adversaries of gender equality and women empowerment think, then it is no wonder that there’s a lot of toxic disagreement on the matter. I suppose it’s difficult for such people to wrap their heads around why having gender-based sports divisions is justified and not inherently sexist, and that both are equally dignified categories.

warkdarrior 6y ago

> we want them to behave the same way we do That is a false statement. We want people to behave respectfully of others, not the same way we do.

luckylion 6y ago
I've rarely seen SJWs behave respectfully to others who weren't like them or were of some group they considered protected. It doesn't seem to be about respectfulness. It looks to be about a superficial diversity: of ethnicity, sex, gender, (dis-)ability etc, but not of thought.
- stonogo 6y ago
  Seems more likely you just don't label the respectful people "SJWs" or some other pejorative.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Possibly, but I don't see a lot of acceptance for actual diversity in diversity circles. There's a core they share (political stance, worldview) that's essential for being allowed. Diversity is allowed beyond that, but that's really no different than anywhere else. Trump fans of lots of different backgrounds get along great, because they share what they consider important. The diversity movement is primarily concerned with allowing diversity outside of the core issues, while strictly forbidding it within, and purging those who don't comply, regardless of their gender, sex, ethnicity etc.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
      > Trump fans of lots of different backgrounds get along great, because they share what they consider important. I haven't thought about this earlier, but there is some truth to it. When I'm with my rightish colleagues, I can basically say anything I like, the worst I risk is being called a stupid commie. Of course they know we have very different opinions, but there is no problem - basically I feel free to discuss anything. With my leftish friends, I really need to be much more careful. Frankly, I'm not up to date about all the current developments especially in the trans sphere, and I'm not sure if the thing that appears in my mind is the right one to say. And when I say something wrong, they are really outraged. They take it personally. So I find myself a bit more quiet when I' with them, and I keep my opinions about important issues to myself.
      - kodah 6y ago
        > With my leftish friends, I really need to be much more careful. Frankly, I'm not up to date about all the current developments especially in the trans sphere, and I'm not sure if the thing that appears in my mind is the right one to say. And when I say something wrong, they are really outraged. They take it personally. So I find myself a bit more quiet when I' with them, and I keep my opinions about important issues to myself. This is not a friend, imo. There are plenty of leftists that aren't performative and don't practice consistent outrage. I've known some of these people too and they're exhausting. Do yourself a favor and get new leftist friends.
BiteCode_dev 6y ago
That's the theory. In practice, respect is a spectrum that includes people sensitivity, education, social context, legality, and is not an absolute. Drawing a picture of God may be worship for some, and disrespectful for others. For more daily simple things, it's the same. If you want an autistic person to behave like you, with empathy, you are not asking for respect. The person may not be disrespecting you. I had an asperger in my class last year, always interrupting me during my explanations. You can enrage that it was disrespect. Or you can understand he just didn't see he was disturbing the flow of the course. Many on twitter would have accused him on mansplaining. I just asked him directly to keep interruptions limited to the time break. He complied, happy to have a clear instruction on how to deal with the situation.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- 3grdlurker 6y ago
  I don’t know how you understand accountability but people who have clinically-diagnosed mental conditions that keep them from having full agencies over their actions are out of the question. The online political discourse you are referring to rests on the assumption that people with bigoted views and behaviors have no such diagnoses and are willfully embracing and practicing bigotry on their own. You don’t even need to define absolutes, for god’s sakes. The point is that people shouldn’t bring their politics to the office, and they do that by not discriminating on anyone on the basis of anything, which necessitates respecting and valuing everyone equally. The problem is that, simply, people don’t do that and actively refuse to do that, because they feel that their inherently divisive views shouldn’t sow divisiveness in the office. It makes no sense.
  - BiteCode_dev 6y ago
    So if a vegan is offended when you eat a meat sandwich at the office, how do you know who is respecting who? Society is currently not vegan in majority, so you could say they should adapt. Also you could adapt the point of view they are trying to do the least of harm, and are suffering from the harm you do. Then, you should adapt. Diversity is bound to cause friction. That's just how it is. There is no simple good answer to that. It's always case by case. What's right today it not what's right tomorrow.
jjav 6y ago
But who defines respectfully? You can find traits which are signs of respect in one culture and yet offensive in others. The only way to reconcile that is to not attempt to impose your definition of respect onto others. Not always super easy to do, of course.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

Do we really need diversity though? I would be perfectly fine if a development of a project would be done by strangers behind incognito aliases. I don't care if the contributed code comes from Black woman or Caucasian man or some cat who had learned to code. I believe that it is absolutely irrelevant topic that is forced on the industry by whatever reasons. If is not like the barrier to entry is too high: anyone who can afford a $500 PC and internet can have access to all the learning materials in the world.

brnt 6y ago
Two things: 1. The meaning of $500 varies wildly across earth. It's not much work to figure that out. 2. It depends on the kind of project. If you want a community project, a project that lives and breathes, you don't just need to put out code, but also inspire use and new contributors. For that, a pleasant atmosphere helps, and have existing contributors seem approachable. For that, you need to project not being a tiny club of likeminded, or worse, outright similar, people. This tends to discouraged interest and participation. It also tends towards a particular internal culture having way too much overlap with a particular culture is my experience. Teams consisting of 30 year old male computer scientists will have a particular kind of banter/small talk utterly incompatible with many other backgrounds. Not having too much of one kind of team member protects you from this, making on boarding easier.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  > The meaning of $500 varies wildly across earth. Oh, come on! This argument appears so often, but it is absolutely irrelevant: a person without a computer is unlikely to participate in the Free Software movement, with rms at the helm or without. And living and breathing projects: all projects would be more healthy if they were all strict to business. No activism of any kind, but the one aimed at improving the product. You don't need to fight for gender equality if you don't care about the sex of the contributor! If sex means zero to you, then both sexes are truly equal, because 0 equals 0.
  - brnt 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

3grdlurker 6y ago

> And diverse genders, but you should consider them all the same, even if we know we have diverse bodies, needs and behaviors. The point of having the knowledge that our bodies and needs are different as dictated by sex (not gender, if you’re talking about bodies) is to respect and value each other equally despite the things that we cannot change about our biologies. If what you just said is how adversaries of gender equality and women empowerment think, then it is no wonder that there’s a lot of toxic disagreement on the matter. I suppose it’s difficult for such people to wrap their heads around why having gender-based sports divisions is justified and not inherently sexist, and that both are equally dignified categories.