6 ms·
So this is literally a website dedicated to defending the character of a major figure in the open-source world, and it gets flagged. This is HN - people should
by unethical_ban 6y ago
So this is literally a website dedicated to defending the character of a major figure in the open-source world, and it gets flagged.
This is HN - people should be able to make their own judgement on the content of the site and discuss it here.
- bitwize 6y agoWhen the topic comes up on /r/linux, the thread gets locked because no fruitful discussion can come of "He wasn't that bad!"/"Yes he was!"/"No, he wasn't!" ad nauseam. That's why the flaggings happen here, too.
- unethical_ban 6y agoNot attacking you, but that line of defense would play a lot better if they didn't allow any discussion of the FSF board or Stallman at all. They have, however, allowed other strong opinions on the site before. It just feels.. eh.
- dang 6y agoThere's no problem with FSF or Stallman being discussed on HN. All that is on topic in principle. What's not on topic is endless repetition of a same-old flamewar. When there's a major ongoing topic, one important test is whether there's SNI (Significant New Information) in a submission—or just a follow-up that's continuing the same discussion. If there's no SNI, chances are high that the discussion will be a repeat, and when the topic is highly polarized, you'll get a repeat of the same flamewar. That's what we really don't want here, so we downweight such follow-ups. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=follow-up%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20repetition%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... These principles are well-established on HN and have nothing specifically to do with Stallman, let alone whatever opinions the mods have or don't have. You'll see the same patterns about any major ongoing topic that's highly divisive. Assange stories, for example, are pretty much an exact parallel. Your comment suggests you may feel like there's a bias in which opinions are being "allowed" - that's not the case. See my explanation above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26713636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26713636. It's all too easy to feel like the local authorities are biased against your view, but that perception is in the eye of the beholder—i.e. it's rooted in cognitive biases, such as the one where people notice the cases they dislike and overlook the others (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...).
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y agoDo you apply this rule evenly? Do you think that some topics are more trouble than they are worth? Some example topics being US/China geopolitics or the story about "men clamming up" around women. Fruitful discussion can be made in both of these but it very often is not.
- dang 6y agoWe do our best to apply it evenly. > Do you think that some topics are more trouble than they are worth? This is too generic a question to answer meaningfully. Probably, but it's more a question of whether a given submission is intellectually interesting and capable of supporting a substantive discussion. > Some example topics being US/China geopolitics or the story about "men clamming up" around women. You're conflating two different categories there. One (US/China geopolitics) is one of the most common flamewar topics that gets posted to HN, with discussions getting asymptotically worse, past the point where it's not clear that the forum can handle it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26652363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26652363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26643703 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26643703 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26637365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26637365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26630159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26630159 The other was a specific article (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26612918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26612918) on a specific topic that really hasn't had much attention. I spent the better part of a day moderating the latter. I don't know if that answers your question or not but from my perspective it's the same principles being applied in all cases. One important thing to realize is that we're trying to optimize HN for just one thing, which is curiosity: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor.... A lot of moderation calls that might seem weird or inconsistent make a lot of sense once you understand the chain of derivation from that rule.
- rambojazz 6y agoProbably flagged because it's political content.
- fulafel 6y agoThere's currently lots of it on the front page: gay marriage, housing policy, Mark Zuckerberg is using on Signal. Seems the current guideline leads to selective enforcement based on unstated background motives.
- dang 6y agoThere are no unstated motives nor background motives—we've been stating them in the foreground for years! Unfortunately, communication on the internet is largely stateless, so no matter how many times you explain something, the bulk of the audience will not have heard it and/or will make up some other explanation. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26713701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26713701 and my other posts in this thread for plenty of explanation.
- dang 6y agoPolitical stories are not off-topic on HN as such. On-topic stories are ones that gratify intellectual curiosity (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html), and plenty of those have political overlap. However, for a story to be on topic for HN, it needs to be intellectually interesting and capable of supporting a substantive thread. Many political stories tend to be sensational rather than intellectually interesting, and also tend to be extremely repetitive. Those are some of the qualities that make a submission off topic for HN (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20repetition%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...) There are many past explanations here: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so.... Some good threads to start with might be https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490. Also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869, which shows how far back political discussion goes on HN, as well as the argument about politics on HN. If anyone still has a question that hasn't been answered there, I'd like to know what it is, and if you know a better way for HN to relate to political topics while fulfilling its mandate of curiosity (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...), I'd really like to know what it is. Just please familiarize yourself with the past material first, because if it's something simple like "just ban politics" or "just allow everything", I've answered many times already why it won't work.
- dang 6y agoWe've been getting questions about this so I'm going to write a detailed explanation. All: if there is any question I haven't answered, please let me know - but please read this comment and its cousins (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26714003 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26714003 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26713701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26713701) first, to make sure that it's truly unanswered. --- There was a massive thread about this a couple weeks ago: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224 - March 2021 (854 comments) Since then, there have been over 100 follow-up submissions. (Not a typo! Over 100 submissions in just two weeks.) I've posted a list of the larger threads below. If you click through those links, you'll see that most have been flagged. They were flagged by users, not moderators. From a moderation point of view, the issue isn't Stallman—the issue is repetition. Curiosity withers under repetition (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20repetition%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...) and flamewar burns it to a crisp. Stallman is on topic for HN, obviously. But endless flamewar is off topic, and the latter trumps the former. In a situation like this, we usually wait for Significant New Information (SNI) to show up. Has there been SNI since https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224? I haven't seen it. I wouldn't mind turning off flags on another large discussion about this, since the last one was 2 weeks ago and there is obviously an appetite for it (among some HN users) in addition to aversion to it (among others). Aversion has been having its way lately, so we could give appetite a chance. However, it would require an article that is capable of supporting a more substantive discussion. In particular, it would have to be something other than a "yay RMS" or a "boo RMS". There's another issue too: if we turn off the flags on a Yay or a Boo, people will accuse us of being Yayers or Booers, and generally we prefer not to release the hounds of hell on ourselves. People accuse us of that anyway; imagine what they'd do with a big fat juicy data point.
- dang 6y agoHN threads with 10 or more live comments since Stallman went back to FSF: In Support of Richard Stallman - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26707498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26707498 - April 2021 (58 comments) Richard Stallman Has Been Vilified by Those Who Don’t Know Him - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26681014 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26681014 - April 2021 (25 comments) Richard Stallman Removed from the GCC Steering Committee - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26670379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26670379 - April 2021 (97 comments) The FSF unionised because of RMS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26649968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26649968 - March 2021 (43 comments) Richard Stallman FSF support/remove letter signature counts - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26646423 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26646423 - March 2021 (41 comments) Libreboot – Defend Richard Stallman - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26646048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26646048 - March 2021 (235 comments) Red Hat Withdraws from the Free Software Foundation After Stallman’s Return - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26626512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26626512 - March 2021 (26 comments) Stallman's return denounced by the EFF, Tor, Mozilla, and the creator of Rust - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26624951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26624951 - March 2021 (54 comments) Not the First Time We Tried (FSF, GNU, RMS, etc.) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26611519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26611519 - March 2021 (70 comments) “The Tor Project is joining calls for Richard M. Stallman to be removed [...]" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26610061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26610061 - March 2021 (35 comments) Remove RMS from the GCC Steering Committee - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26598066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26598066 - March 2021 (59 comments) Red Hat Pulls Free Software Foundation Funding over Richard Stallman's Return - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26596378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26596378 - March 2021 (104 comments) Red Hat statement about RMS’s return to the Free Software Foundation board - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26585378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26585378 - March 2021 (78 comments) Stallman isn't great, but not the devil - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26579225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26579225 - March 2021 (63 comments) Statement on Re-Election of Richard Stallman to Free Software Foundation Board - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26575214 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26575214 - March 2021 (28 comments) Return of Stallman sparks outrage among open-source and free software leaders - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26574186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26574186 - March 2021 (19 comments) Mozilla, Tor Join Calls to Oust Richard Stallman from Free Software Foundation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26573717 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26573717 - March 2021 (220 comments) An open letter in support of RMS being reinstated by the FSF - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26568144 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26568144 - March 2021 (106 comments) The X.Org Foundation is joining calls for RMS to be removed - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26565579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26565579 - March 2021 (11 comments) RMS Support Letter - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26565107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26565107 - March 2021 (47 comments) About the RMS Cancellation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26562247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26562247 - March 2021 (27 comments) Free software advocates seek removal of Richard Stallman and entire FSF board - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26562138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26562138 - March 2021 (13 comments) OSI Response to RMS’s Reappointment to the Board of the Free Software Foundation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26559049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26559049 - March 2021 (11 comments) rms-open-letter.github.io - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26558348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26558348 - March 2021 (139 comments) Richard Stallman back at Free Software Foundation, says he won’t quit again - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26544440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26544440 - March 2021 (26 comments) Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224 - March 2021 (855 comments)
- browningstreet 6y agoHow do you see that it was flagged? This looks like a normal post to me, but I see this "flagged" comment frequently, but don't understand what people are seeing. Thx.
- dugmartin 6y agoIt might be triggered at a certain karma level but when I look at those threads directly I see the title prefixed with “[flagged]”.