5 ms·

Personal story - I was the person who used to get angry and outraged whenever these stories of harassment were published, taking a stance which was pro the supp

Personal story - I was the person who used to get angry and outraged whenever these stories of harassment were published, taking a stance which was pro the supposed victim. Independently, I used to be a huge fan of Stallman and read a lot of his writings as well as what others wrote about him. So when the story first broke out in 2019, my first reaction was "This is simply not possible." Of course, upon researching further in depth, I agree with the sentiments in the linked site and still strongly support Stallman. I have come to realize that just jumping on the outrage train is not a good strategy and in fact can be dangerous. One must take the time to understand all the facts and only then come to a conclusion. For example, there are huge differences between the Susan Fowler and Ellen Pao stories whereas lot of people just treat them as the same. Anyway, my 2 cents - get all the necessary background information first before labelling and assassinating the character of a person.

unityByFreedom 6y ago
I just wonder why he hasn't updated or amended his website, https://www.google.com/search?q=pedophile+site%3Astallman.org https://www.google.com/search?q=pedophile+site%3Astallman.or...
- torthrowaway999 6y ago
  Did you ask him? Surely he knows more about it than some random person on HN. I am glad that he did not remove his previous statements though, it would be akin to rewriting history, although I think that a note saying that he changed his opinions would be nice.
- amanzi 6y ago
  That doesn't appear to be his style. And even if he did update or amend old posts, there would still be archives and copies floating around that people could refer to if they felt the need. He has changed his views on some topics over the years, including this: https://stallman.org/archives/2019-sep-dec.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-sep-dec.html#14_September...
  - unityByFreedom 6y ago
    It makes me wonder whether he is sincere in his new position. He could easily add a note to his prior statements in a minute's time. He chooses not to do it. Perhaps he doesn't do it because he doesn't want to change what's been written. To me it comes off as insincere given how easy it is to modify websites. Ultimately, what he does is his choice and how it's perceived is everyone else's.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > It makes me wonder whether he is sincere in his new position. Somebody who always says what he thinks without giving any thought to how it will be perceived, how it will affect his future relationships with people, his employment etc is probably not the person who will follow Hillary Clinton's lead and have "a public and a private" opinion.
      - unityByFreedom 6y ago
        All of this "stallman is a special person who does not need to follow even basic social norms" does not fly with me. He can put a little more effort into clarifying his new found views.
    - d_tr 6y ago
      The only difference I can see is that he could do himself a favor by amending the older note. Why do you think it could be sign of insincerity? There are also literally many thousands of political notes in his site, but people seem to be fixated on like five of them.
- senectus1 6y ago
  Probably for the same reason he hasn't amended his website to include a denial of wife beating: https://www.google.com/search?q=wife+beating+site%3Astallman.org https://www.google.com/search?q=wife+beating+site%3Astallman...
- marstall 6y ago
  good lord.
stcredzero 6y ago
Anyway, my 2 cents - get all the necessary background information first before labelling and assassinating the character of a person. I think this is covered in Jared Diamond's Collapse. During the Salem Witch Trials, there was a point where a good chunk of the accusations were motivated by getting someone out of the way, so they could get their land, or otherwise by land disputes. Also covered there: Much of the Rwandan genocide seems to have been exploited by land and resource disputes. Power corrupts. If you give people unchecked power, then that power will be abused. This is just human nature. One group of people who frequently get unchecked power are activists. The press is supposed to the one of their checks and balances, but they are frequently giving only softballs and a free pass. Often fellow journalists even prevent further investigations. This also worked against the aims of the #MeToo movement in the past. This kind of press manipulation needs to be called out. It shouldn't happen. Many accusations at this point are likely to be exploited for ulterior motives. There's just too much unchecked power in such accusations now to expect otherwise. I have come to realize that just jumping on the outrage train is not a good strategy and in fact can be dangerous. One must take the time to understand all the facts and only then come to a conclusion. This is how we get away from the pathologies of the mob -- We as a society need to regain our respect for due process, "innocent until proven guilty," and evidence!
- d_tr 6y ago
  There are a lot of dynamics and feedback loops at play here. It is a sad situation and I really do not know what can be done at this point...
  - stcredzero 6y ago
    Speak out against the pathologies of the mob, or stand by and watch them become the norm. Watch those norms displace the value of evidence, due process, innocent until proven guilty. There's your choice. Lots of people fantasize about what they would have done, had they lived in dark historical period X. Well, consider this a half strength test.
CodeGlitch 6y ago
So far we've heard that he has expressed questionable views in the past (not a crime) and that he can come across as a bit creepy to some people (again not a crime, I know tonnes of people like that). Basically he has committed thought crimes (to some people) and is being cancelled in a very obvious sense. Given what he has achieved in his life that has benefited everyone of us, I'm amazed HN folk are so quick to go along with cancelling him. Shame on you.
- d_tr 6y ago
  We were barely able to keep this post alive. It doesn't matter. Stallman will probably be out of the FSF soon and people will keep thinking of him as a monster and be happy that they got rid of him in this way.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't do the never-ending flamewar on HN. That includes making spurious generalizations about the community and then shame-on-you-ing the spurious generalization. Tedious lock-in on intense positions against intense opposition kills curiosity, and eventually its own host. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
einpoklum 6y ago
I may not have all of the background information, but reading the open letter against the FSF board: https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ and the incidents they cite: https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix I find that the signatories seem to be conflating expressions of opinion with action, and demand extreme action in the face of a collection of statements-of-opinion which they disagree with. But even this is not the worst part of the demand: The letter is not really targeting RMS - it targets anyone who is willing to _tolerate_ RMS, and specifically the FSF board. It is imperative IMHO that this initiative be fended off, unless you'd like an FSF - and other NGOs - which shudders in fear at the thought of making statements or taking positions which are not in-line enough with mainstream politics. And they will be sure to police each other, since a rhetorical vice by one is a capital offense by all. And that's all before getting into RMS' neuro-atypicality; and the fact that board membership is not management of the FSF; etc. I just don't think the appropriate defense here should focus on RMS.
- d_tr 6y ago
  Debian will make an announcement in a bit less than 2 weeks: https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 The most popular proposal seems to be "Call on the FSF to further its governance processes", but "Denounce the witch-hunt against RMS and the FSF" and the support letter are also among the proposals.
c7DJTLrn 6y ago
For every rational person like you who realises their mistake and decides to collect facts first in future, there are 100 others too angry or too obtuse to admit they made a mistake in the first place. Senseless cancel culture needs to stop.

unityByFreedom 6y ago

I just wonder why he hasn't updated or amended his website, https://www.google.com/search?q=pedophile+site%3Astallman.org https://www.google.com/search?q=pedophile+site%3Astallman.or...

torthrowaway999 6y ago
Did you ask him? Surely he knows more about it than some random person on HN. I am glad that he did not remove his previous statements though, it would be akin to rewriting history, although I think that a note saying that he changed his opinions would be nice.
amanzi 6y ago
That doesn't appear to be his style. And even if he did update or amend old posts, there would still be archives and copies floating around that people could refer to if they felt the need. He has changed his views on some topics over the years, including this: https://stallman.org/archives/2019-sep-dec.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-sep-dec.html#14_September...
- unityByFreedom 6y ago
  It makes me wonder whether he is sincere in his new position. He could easily add a note to his prior statements in a minute's time. He chooses not to do it. Perhaps he doesn't do it because he doesn't want to change what's been written. To me it comes off as insincere given how easy it is to modify websites. Ultimately, what he does is his choice and how it's perceived is everyone else's.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > It makes me wonder whether he is sincere in his new position. Somebody who always says what he thinks without giving any thought to how it will be perceived, how it will affect his future relationships with people, his employment etc is probably not the person who will follow Hillary Clinton's lead and have "a public and a private" opinion.
    - unityByFreedom 6y ago
      All of this "stallman is a special person who does not need to follow even basic social norms" does not fly with me. He can put a little more effort into clarifying his new found views.
  - d_tr 6y ago
    The only difference I can see is that he could do himself a favor by amending the older note. Why do you think it could be sign of insincerity? There are also literally many thousands of political notes in his site, but people seem to be fixated on like five of them.
senectus1 6y ago
Probably for the same reason he hasn't amended his website to include a denial of wife beating: https://www.google.com/search?q=wife+beating+site%3Astallman.org https://www.google.com/search?q=wife+beating+site%3Astallman...
marstall 6y ago
good lord.

stcredzero 6y ago

Anyway, my 2 cents - get all the necessary background information first before labelling and assassinating the character of a person. I think this is covered in Jared Diamond's Collapse. During the Salem Witch Trials, there was a point where a good chunk of the accusations were motivated by getting someone out of the way, so they could get their land, or otherwise by land disputes. Also covered there: Much of the Rwandan genocide seems to have been exploited by land and resource disputes. Power corrupts. If you give people unchecked power, then that power will be abused. This is just human nature. One group of people who frequently get unchecked power are activists. The press is supposed to the one of their checks and balances, but they are frequently giving only softballs and a free pass. Often fellow journalists even prevent further investigations. This also worked against the aims of the #MeToo movement in the past. This kind of press manipulation needs to be called out. It shouldn't happen. Many accusations at this point are likely to be exploited for ulterior motives. There's just too much unchecked power in such accusations now to expect otherwise. I have come to realize that just jumping on the outrage train is not a good strategy and in fact can be dangerous. One must take the time to understand all the facts and only then come to a conclusion. This is how we get away from the pathologies of the mob -- We as a society need to regain our respect for due process, "innocent until proven guilty," and evidence!

d_tr 6y ago
There are a lot of dynamics and feedback loops at play here. It is a sad situation and I really do not know what can be done at this point...
- stcredzero 6y ago
  Speak out against the pathologies of the mob, or stand by and watch them become the norm. Watch those norms displace the value of evidence, due process, innocent until proven guilty. There's your choice. Lots of people fantasize about what they would have done, had they lived in dark historical period X. Well, consider this a half strength test.

CodeGlitch 6y ago

So far we've heard that he has expressed questionable views in the past (not a crime) and that he can come across as a bit creepy to some people (again not a crime, I know tonnes of people like that). Basically he has committed thought crimes (to some people) and is being cancelled in a very obvious sense. Given what he has achieved in his life that has benefited everyone of us, I'm amazed HN folk are so quick to go along with cancelling him. Shame on you.

d_tr 6y ago
We were barely able to keep this post alive. It doesn't matter. Stallman will probably be out of the FSF soon and people will keep thinking of him as a monster and be happy that they got rid of him in this way.
dang 6y ago
Please don't do the never-ending flamewar on HN. That includes making spurious generalizations about the community and then shame-on-you-ing the spurious generalization. Tedious lock-in on intense positions against intense opposition kills curiosity, and eventually its own host. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

einpoklum 6y ago

I may not have all of the background information, but reading the open letter against the FSF board: https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ and the incidents they cite: https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix I find that the signatories seem to be conflating expressions of opinion with action, and demand extreme action in the face of a collection of statements-of-opinion which they disagree with. But even this is not the worst part of the demand: The letter is not really targeting RMS - it targets anyone who is willing to _tolerate_ RMS, and specifically the FSF board. It is imperative IMHO that this initiative be fended off, unless you'd like an FSF - and other NGOs - which shudders in fear at the thought of making statements or taking positions which are not in-line enough with mainstream politics. And they will be sure to police each other, since a rhetorical vice by one is a capital offense by all. And that's all before getting into RMS' neuro-atypicality; and the fact that board membership is not management of the FSF; etc. I just don't think the appropriate defense here should focus on RMS.

d_tr 6y ago
Debian will make an announcement in a bit less than 2 weeks: https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 The most popular proposal seems to be "Call on the FSF to further its governance processes", but "Denounce the witch-hunt against RMS and the FSF" and the support letter are also among the proposals.

c7DJTLrn 6y ago

For every rational person like you who realises their mistake and decides to collect facts first in future, there are 100 others too angry or too obtuse to admit they made a mistake in the first place. Senseless cancel culture needs to stop.