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As with the health care debate, the US is also an outlier when discussing prisons: "The United States has ... the highest incarceration rate in the world"[1]

As with the health care debate, the US is also an outlier when discussing prisons: "The United States has ... the highest incarceration rate in the world"[1] Canada has less than 1/6th the US incarceration rate and Mexico just over 1/5th. Interesting to keep this in mind while reading the rest of these comments. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_incarceration_rate_with_other_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in...

thewarrior 6y ago
This is what a lot of the other “well if you commit crimes then you go to jail” people in this thread are missing. They need to explain why Americans commit 6 times more crimes than Canadians.
- vxNsr 6y ago
  Probably all those white supremacists that those other counties don’t have.
  - thewarrior 6y ago
    If you’re sarcastically implying what I think you’re implying which is that certain minorities commit a disproportionate number of crimes in the US, that still doesn’t explain it. All countries even wealthy ones have disaffected minorities that are economically and socially backward. But among the first world countries only America has such a severe crime problem.
    - vxNsr 6y ago
      I’m sarcastically implying that attempting to apply someone else’s marginally successful model to a totally different culture is a recipe for a bad time.
      - Ensorceled 6y ago
        Canada is not a “totally different culture”. Also, your definition of marginally is ... odd.
- dv_dt 6y ago
  And why does the US almost 3x the rate of nations like China which we like to point out as human rights repressive. (and yes that includes third party estimates of political prisoners).
  - thewarrior 6y ago
    I’m not sure if people in the US realize that they make a big issue about forced labor in China while having one of the worlds largest prison populations that is also subject to forced labor. I rarely see this discussed.
- kazinator 6y ago
  They don't; the USA is ridiculously tough on minor offenses, or even behaviors that are not even wrong, like possessing drugs.
vxNsr 6y ago
Idk about Canada but I know I do not want anything to do with a country that has its own people fleeing in droves. If Mexico has everything figured out societally they wouldn’t be running to us so fast. Not to mention all the people who pass through to get the US. And btw, those same Mexicans don’t ask for permission to pass through the US to get to Canada for a better life... they ask to stay here or they just do stay here, if Canada really were the better option more ppl would be trying to get there vs stay in the US. On paper Mexico is a liberal paradise: low incarceration rates, large social safety nets, large federally owned companies; and yet, in practice, that translates to an unmotivated workforce, an absolutely corrupt police force, and an inability to bring many people out of poverty.
- astrea 6y ago
  You realize a lot of the people who you are falsely identifying as Mexicans are from other Central and South American countries?
  - vxNsr 6y ago
    You realize that makes your argument worse.
kinghtown 6y ago
I’m extremely soft on crime because I believe that countries which have adopted this stance have reduced levels of crime. As a Canadian, this is clear as day to me just by comparing the US to Canada. It’s annoying when talking to people who disagree because their argument is in essence that I don’t understand the concept of revenge or that my (perceived) permissiveness is a character fault. They also foolishly believe that maximum penalties act as a deterrent. If someone commits a serious crime and the punishment is profoundly life altering then that person is just so much more likely to become violent, kill witnesses, try their luck at a high speed chase, whatever. Having a parent in jail statistically raises the likelihood of delinquency. Growing up in poverty can feel like it’s own type of prison. It’s just so obvious to me why the crime rate is so high. But people who support the death penalty (as an example) are just so firmly stuck in the nature vs nurture mentality. “So you think that someone who rapes and kills children should walk away?” They always fall on this line as though people like me just simply don’t get it when from the way I see it, it’s them who have blood lust for murder and they just don’t care at all to consider the systemic effect that their mentality has. “Soft on crime” is a generational investment so that the next batch of kids won’t be as fucked up as we are.
- kazinator 6y ago
  You're talking specifically about murder and such. Surely, the reason the incarceration rate is 6 times higher in the USA than in Canada isn't because Canada is soft on first degree murder.
  - kinghtown 6y ago
    Much softer than America. There is no death penalty, for example.
umvi 6y ago
Mexico might not be a good example because they have problems such as cartels being more powerful than the state military and cartel members holding public executions while police turn a blind eye.
- Ensorceled 6y ago
  It's a fascinating example for two reasons: 1) the drug cartels are powerful because of the massively lucrative drug trade with the US and 2) overall crime in Mexico is actually pretty comparable or lower than the US in many areas, especially if you account for inter-cartel violence [1] [1] https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Mexico/United-States/Crime https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Mexico/Uni...

thewarrior 6y ago

This is what a lot of the other “well if you commit crimes then you go to jail” people in this thread are missing. They need to explain why Americans commit 6 times more crimes than Canadians.

vxNsr 6y ago
Probably all those white supremacists that those other counties don’t have.
- thewarrior 6y ago
  If you’re sarcastically implying what I think you’re implying which is that certain minorities commit a disproportionate number of crimes in the US, that still doesn’t explain it. All countries even wealthy ones have disaffected minorities that are economically and socially backward. But among the first world countries only America has such a severe crime problem.
  - vxNsr 6y ago
    I’m sarcastically implying that attempting to apply someone else’s marginally successful model to a totally different culture is a recipe for a bad time.
    - Ensorceled 6y ago
      Canada is not a “totally different culture”. Also, your definition of marginally is ... odd.
dv_dt 6y ago
And why does the US almost 3x the rate of nations like China which we like to point out as human rights repressive. (and yes that includes third party estimates of political prisoners).
- thewarrior 6y ago
  I’m not sure if people in the US realize that they make a big issue about forced labor in China while having one of the worlds largest prison populations that is also subject to forced labor. I rarely see this discussed.
kazinator 6y ago
They don't; the USA is ridiculously tough on minor offenses, or even behaviors that are not even wrong, like possessing drugs.

vxNsr 6y ago

Idk about Canada but I know I do not want anything to do with a country that has its own people fleeing in droves. If Mexico has everything figured out societally they wouldn’t be running to us so fast. Not to mention all the people who pass through to get the US. And btw, those same Mexicans don’t ask for permission to pass through the US to get to Canada for a better life... they ask to stay here or they just do stay here, if Canada really were the better option more ppl would be trying to get there vs stay in the US. On paper Mexico is a liberal paradise: low incarceration rates, large social safety nets, large federally owned companies; and yet, in practice, that translates to an unmotivated workforce, an absolutely corrupt police force, and an inability to bring many people out of poverty.

astrea 6y ago
You realize a lot of the people who you are falsely identifying as Mexicans are from other Central and South American countries?
- vxNsr 6y ago
  You realize that makes your argument worse.

kinghtown 6y ago

I’m extremely soft on crime because I believe that countries which have adopted this stance have reduced levels of crime. As a Canadian, this is clear as day to me just by comparing the US to Canada. It’s annoying when talking to people who disagree because their argument is in essence that I don’t understand the concept of revenge or that my (perceived) permissiveness is a character fault. They also foolishly believe that maximum penalties act as a deterrent. If someone commits a serious crime and the punishment is profoundly life altering then that person is just so much more likely to become violent, kill witnesses, try their luck at a high speed chase, whatever. Having a parent in jail statistically raises the likelihood of delinquency. Growing up in poverty can feel like it’s own type of prison. It’s just so obvious to me why the crime rate is so high. But people who support the death penalty (as an example) are just so firmly stuck in the nature vs nurture mentality. “So you think that someone who rapes and kills children should walk away?” They always fall on this line as though people like me just simply don’t get it when from the way I see it, it’s them who have blood lust for murder and they just don’t care at all to consider the systemic effect that their mentality has. “Soft on crime” is a generational investment so that the next batch of kids won’t be as fucked up as we are.

kazinator 6y ago
You're talking specifically about murder and such. Surely, the reason the incarceration rate is 6 times higher in the USA than in Canada isn't because Canada is soft on first degree murder.
- kinghtown 6y ago
  Much softer than America. There is no death penalty, for example.

umvi 6y ago

Mexico might not be a good example because they have problems such as cartels being more powerful than the state military and cartel members holding public executions while police turn a blind eye.

Ensorceled 6y ago
It's a fascinating example for two reasons: 1) the drug cartels are powerful because of the massively lucrative drug trade with the US and 2) overall crime in Mexico is actually pretty comparable or lower than the US in many areas, especially if you account for inter-cartel violence [1] [1] https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Mexico/United-States/Crime https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Mexico/Uni...