4 ms·

Cruelty is the point

auslegung 6y ago
> I am familiar with the cynical riposte that jail isn't supposed to be fun. But we Americans can do better than that. The punishments received should be those mandated by the legal system, as properly expressed through the decisions of judges and juries. Some people might wish to argue for tougher penalties for some crimes and thus for some criminals, and that is a debate worth having. That is precisely the point: Such judgments should be made after public debate, not by gang powers within a prison.
- t-writescode 6y ago
  I’m not sure they’re meaning it should be the point, but that our system, as designed, is to inflict as much harm (not justice) as we can on people that we think are less than us. They may not agree with it morally at all, but that could be what they see.
  - lostcolony 6y ago
    Yeah, I took it as an indictment of the current system, not a defense of it. If they'd meant it to be a defense they likely would have said something like "if you can't do the time don't do the crime" and "It's called consequences", and other neutral to positive phrases. 'Cruelty' is generally considered a negative term; to apply it to something else is usually to pass judgement on that something else.
- Fomite 6y ago
  I believe they're suggesting that these systems are designed to be cruel, and that there are people who desire that. I was astonished while I was working on COVID-19 in jails that the statement "Someone shouldn't die of COVID because they can't afford bail" as something that got active pushback by some people.
  - rectang 6y ago
    "The Cruelty is the Point — President Trump and his supporters find community by rejoicing in the suffering of those they hate and fear" is a 2018 Adam Serwer essay from The Atlantic. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelty-is-the-point/572104/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelt... I concur that "the cruelty is the point" captures the driving force behind "Why America's prisons are an unconstitutional moral horror".
    - knowaveragejoe 6y ago
      This describes Trumpism to a T, thanks.
      - rectang 6y ago
        I think Serwer described something much older, something that transcends 2018's political actors and today's American political party alignments. Imposing suffering affirms your own power and the powerlessness of your enemies — and that's something intrinsic to the darker side of human nature. The current moral malady of the US prison system goes back to the 90s and the infamous 1994 crime bill which intensified the racial iniquities of the US justice system. It was bad long before that, too — it's not something which started with the 2016 presidential election. But in my view, "the cruelty is the point" also describes the sentiments of the 1990s crime panic.
TeeMassive 6y ago
Except there point in the Constitution that says otherwise.
- goldenchrome 6y ago
  The Constitution isn't inviolable. It only holds up as long as people are willing to defend it. And there are very few people who care about the livelihood of prisoners.
  - TeeMassive 6y ago
    Prisons are part of the justice system. The people working there must be willing to abide by the Constitution, or they shouldn't be working there. Sure I get your point, in the end the Constitution is only a piece of paper, it's not inviolable de facto but by law it is.

> I am familiar with the cynical riposte that jail isn't supposed to be fun. But we Americans can do better than that. The punishments received should be those mandated by the legal system, as properly expressed through the decisions of judges and juries. Some people might wish to argue for tougher penalties for some crimes and thus for some criminals, and that is a debate worth having. That is precisely the point: Such judgments should be made after public debate, not by gang powers within a prison.

t-writescode 6y ago
I’m not sure they’re meaning it should be the point, but that our system, as designed, is to inflict as much harm (not justice) as we can on people that we think are less than us. They may not agree with it morally at all, but that could be what they see.
- lostcolony 6y ago
  Yeah, I took it as an indictment of the current system, not a defense of it. If they'd meant it to be a defense they likely would have said something like "if you can't do the time don't do the crime" and "It's called consequences", and other neutral to positive phrases. 'Cruelty' is generally considered a negative term; to apply it to something else is usually to pass judgement on that something else.
Fomite 6y ago
I believe they're suggesting that these systems are designed to be cruel, and that there are people who desire that. I was astonished while I was working on COVID-19 in jails that the statement "Someone shouldn't die of COVID because they can't afford bail" as something that got active pushback by some people.
- rectang 6y ago
  "The Cruelty is the Point — President Trump and his supporters find community by rejoicing in the suffering of those they hate and fear" is a 2018 Adam Serwer essay from The Atlantic. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelty-is-the-point/572104/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelt... I concur that "the cruelty is the point" captures the driving force behind "Why America's prisons are an unconstitutional moral horror".
  - knowaveragejoe 6y ago
    This describes Trumpism to a T, thanks.
    - rectang 6y ago
      I think Serwer described something much older, something that transcends 2018's political actors and today's American political party alignments. Imposing suffering affirms your own power and the powerlessness of your enemies — and that's something intrinsic to the darker side of human nature. The current moral malady of the US prison system goes back to the 90s and the infamous 1994 crime bill which intensified the racial iniquities of the US justice system. It was bad long before that, too — it's not something which started with the 2016 presidential election. But in my view, "the cruelty is the point" also describes the sentiments of the 1990s crime panic.

TeeMassive 6y ago

Except there point in the Constitution that says otherwise.

goldenchrome 6y ago
The Constitution isn't inviolable. It only holds up as long as people are willing to defend it. And there are very few people who care about the livelihood of prisoners.
- TeeMassive 6y ago
  Prisons are part of the justice system. The people working there must be willing to abide by the Constitution, or they shouldn't be working there. Sure I get your point, in the end the Constitution is only a piece of paper, it's not inviolable de facto but by law it is.